Howe To Make a Movie
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HOWE TO MAKE A MOVIE W/ DAVE STERN
SUMMARY
Dave shares his journey from sports agent to entertainment lawyer, emphasizing initiative and authenticity in the industry. He discusses funding independent films, stressing the importance of a compelling narrative and legal protection through a production company. The conversation covers the financial intricacies of filmmaking, including the preference for investments over loans. Dave also touches on acquisition deals and the growing role of AI in entertainment while highlighting the significance of ethical boundaries and transparency.
ABOUT DAVE
Dave Stern is an entertainment lawyer who provides creative and practical solutions for complex matters in the areas of Sports, Entertainment and Corporate/Commercial Law. In particular, Dave’s practice focuses on audio-visual production, distribution and exploitation (films, television series, digital media projects), brand licensing, influencer representation and commercial transactions. Dave also represents labels, bands, producers and artists in the negotiation of recording, management and publishing agreements. In addition, Dave is involved in establishing optimal corporate structuring for his clients.
Dave has a unique sports background, as he previously worked in the legal departments of both the Oakland Raiders and Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd., where he was regularly involved in software licencing, the protection and enforcement of intellectual property rights, sponsorships, contests and promotions, collective bargaining, athlete/player contracts, broadcasting and distribution. He has counselled 36 film & TV projects, including Blackberry, Seven Veils, Humane, and many more.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Dave:
[0:03] Like think about it imagine me going to a a major buyer and say I have this great idea for a painting I haven't made it yetinterested. Much harder than look at this painting it's so good right so I think having something concrete a definitive piece of work that they can see is going to be a lot more helpful, it does not matter about me and my sales tactics I could be the greatest showman or salesman on Earth but it's about the project and so, to go to a film festival for it to be accepted in the film festival for you to have all your legal eyes dotted and T's crossed is significant, it gives you an error of legitimacy that maybe you didn't think you had before.
Lauren:
[0:41] Today's conversation is with 1 Dave Stern, Now Dave is an incredible entertainment lawyer a friend and a Guiding Light in my career that this conversation originally started as how to make a movie from A to Z. But in reality that can't be covered in a short podcast episode so it was a little bit more Aida C+ if you will that said it is geared towards the emerging filmmakers someone who is looking to get their first professional project off the ground Dave mentions in the conversation mostly the independent filmmaker looking at a budget of sub 5 million which still is a significant amount of money, however we dive into everything of, how to make a movie what's the high-level bird's eye view to understand what steps that you need to take to get a project off the ground, why is it important to incorporate a company securing and transferring rights legal rights to a story financing opportunities if you get private investors how do you talk about, the ROI of a filmer return on investment, attachment agreements seeking talent and lastly the impact of AI in our industry a caveat this was filmed during the 2023 sag and wga Strikes which had a significant portion of that collective bargaining agreement about AI in the future of its use in film a little about Dave. Dave is an entertainment lawyer who provides creative and practical solutions for complex matters in the area of sports entertainment and Commercial corporate law.
Lauren:
[2:10] In particular Dave's practice focuses on audio visual production distribution exploitation films TV series digital media projects brand licensing influencer representation and Commercial transactions. Dave also represents labels Brands producers and artists and negotiating of recording management publishing agreements he's also involved in establishing optimal corporate structuring for his clients, Dave has a unique sport, background where he previously worked in the legal department to both the Oakland Raiders and Maple Leaf sports and entertainment wh ere he was regularly involved in software licensing the protection and enforcement of intellectual property rights sponsorships contests promotions collective bargaining athletes, contracts broadcasting and distributionlet me take a breath they are. He has canceled 36 film and television projects including Blackberry directed by Matt Johnson starring Jay beer shell and Glenn Howerton 7 Vails a tiff 2023 hit written and directed by Adam macgoye and starring Amanda Seyfried Rebecca Liddiard and Douglas Smith, and Humane Caitlyn cronenberg's latest film also featuring J beel Emily Hampshire and Peter Gallagher just a couple of the many wonderful projects He has worked on.
Lauren:
[3:18] This is a great conversation for. Now this conversation is great for anyone who is looking to start their own projects or production company Dave I can speak from firsthand experience, is someone who's incredible not only at his job but as, a human being as a friend as a mentor I don't think I'd be where I am today without Dave I am so appreciative of all of his help and guidance along the way and I hope this conversation does the same for you.
Lauren:
[3:46] Without further Ado this is how to make a movie with Dave Stern.
Lauren:
[3:54] There's such a broad range of what we want to dive into because you are such a talented lawyer and also incredible friend, who has helped provide a tremendous amount of guidance in my life that this is half the reason we want to have you on the show is to be able to help others.
Dave:
[4:11] Thank you so much I'm honestly very honored and happy to be like considered you've been such a great friend to me and I'd love to help in any way that I can.
Lauren:
[4:20] Look at us Canadians just tooting each other's horns.
Dave:
[4:22] And just saying sorry all the time.
Lauren:
[4:25] Everyone's always kind of thought at some point maybe not necessarily every person in the world but they are's an incredible story and I want that story to be told, and from a film and TV perspective it can often feel like a black box of how to go from point A to Z Z what a Canadian say I don't even know.
Dave:
[4:41] I say Z is that weird.
Lauren:
[4:42] No I've run I don'twe're we're multi multi border let's say.
Dave:
[4:47] That's right that's right.
Lauren:
[4:49] But I want to highlight a little bit about you as an individualHowe did you end up in the path to Sport and entertainment law.
Dave:
[4:57] Uh well I think part of your path is part of it is predetermined I mean I I felt like I was destined to be a sports agent I went to law school.
Dave:
[5:08] Almost knowing that that was going to happen somehow or another some way or another and. I certainly Market myself as a sports and entertainment lawyer we'll get to what I do in a Sac but most of my practice is on the film and television side representing talent and production companies make. Feature films and television series and culturally and from a skill set standpoint it is completely different than the World of Sports so while it seems like this is always my path. From where I wanted to end up as a sports agent to where I actually learned that I really wanted which is here in the World of Sports a film and television, it's almost night and day so I went to law school to be a sports agent and. Um as a result didn't pay much attention to a lot of Law School courses and as a result did not get any interviews for any jobs, and I was kind of frustrated by that process and I figured you know what I'm just going to make my own career path, I love sports I love the NFL specifically the Raiders so in law school I just cold called 1-800 Raiders, and demanded to speak to the legal team uh which they initially laughed off and then patch me through and several phone interviews later, I moved to Auckland to work for the Raiders in their legal department and I did that in my second and third year of law school and then did the same thing, uh after law school with the Maple Leafs I'm not I'm from Montreal so I'm not from Toronto I have no.
Lauren:
[6:34] Oh that must have hurt you.
Dave:
[6:36] I'm not a Habs fan so I was actually pretty easy but to my Montreal family and friends, it was this close to being dead to them as possible yeah so cold called the Maple Leafs and they said they were not going to hire you because you have no experience you have a great story but you know. You call you cold call all these companies maybe you should just work in sales and learn the business which I initially laughed off because I just spent years hustling my way through law school wrote the bar past it. Sir fully certified lawyer and decided yeah I'm just going to put that on hold and work in sales for the Maple Leafs and I came here. For a 13 an hour job to sell tickets for the Raptors in Maple Leafs and I B I constantly pestered the legal department for an opportunity and they entertained it but didn't do anything and then they are was uh they are was an opening, and I applied and initially didn't get it because they said they need to hire a seventh or eighth year lawyer, and I made a deal with the legal department and the sales department let me do this excess legal work that's been building up since you've been shorthanded, let me do this for free I could do this 1 day a week or nights and weekends whatever it takes and if you hire me I'd be able to hit the ground running, and if you don't hire me and you hire someone else you would have made me very happy and they wouldn't be overwhelmed with all the excess work that's now disappeared.
Dave:
[7:55] Win-win it's my best sales tactic and they accept it and I did this for months until they hired me full-time legal counsel at mlsc. And at the time I was the youngest lawyer in the NHL and the NBA and it was like I can't believe this job from a LinkedIn perspective I had the coolest sounding job from a sports lawyer and then.
Dave:
[8:15] Yet felt a little bit unfulfilled I mean the Emily is an amazing company the people that work they are are unbelievable and I'm so grateful that I wasn't giving it my all and I kind of realized after more reflection, I need a job where I feel like I'm helping people and they are's a sales component to it I love dealing with people and when you work as a lawyer for a company, you're dealing with the internal people but you have no clients can't get clients and I happen to work on HBO Leafs documentary for the Winter Classic and that was my first exposure to film and television, and I fell in love with it did some work in terms of research and figured out Sports law. Difficult to quantify they are's not a lot of sports Law Firm certainly none in Canada I have this great training but entertainment law is a real thing they are's entertainment law boutiques they are's large firms that do it and I just started meeting as many people as I could to learn about the business and, I met someone named Eric bernberg who's 1 of the creators of and founders of Luis berbrooke handed it's 1 of the boutique law firms and entertainment,
Dave:
[9:18] and he gave me a chance and I'm forever grateful to him and I was I worked for him for about 6 6 and a half years. And it was a tremendous experience uh just doing entertainment law mostly film and television representing some influencers along the way some professional athletes and sports still carries.
Dave:
[9:36] Follows followed me through to this part of my career and built up a a great practice until 1 day about 3 and a half years ago a large firm that's. 180 lawyers blaming Mercury, that use have a presence in sports entertainment laws that a couple years ago and is looking to basically reclaim it and gave me an opportunity to come in as a partner head up their sports and entertainment practice and build it as, you know I was big and as high as I can as I can do it and I've been they are ever since and it's been amazing. So which leads me to like what I do now I mostly represent talent and filmmakers making feature films A to Z a to zed, whichever 1 but anything that they need I felt like. I'm so passionate about the work that I do because I love I don't I'm not a creative person and I know that about me I don't I don't have this dream of making something for the last 10 years, but to align myself with people that do have those dreams and can't get to that Finish Line because whether it's, they're so creative and the they're lacking you know true business knowledge or obviously how could they possibly know all the legal ins and outs, or they're just looking for that partner or need someone in any way in terms of my skills and experience and I feel like that to help other people fulfill their dreams has been such such a cliche thing to say but it's actually how I feel it's been really fulfilling for me.
Lauren:
[10:57] It's not cliche at all it's actually I I love the way you phrase that becausethe business side is so often overlooked. And also you have individuals who are passionate about the industry but to recognize they are are so many moving pieces inCreative quote unquote worlds that are not. Creative like by definition its not necessarily being the artist the photographer the filmmaker the the actor it they're so like if you look at a credit sheet it's the reason you're sitting they are for 5 minutes is you have an entire crew not just crew being who's on set. That takes a village being another cliche cue that up is yeah.
Dave:
[11:36] Really does though it really does take a village.
Lauren:
[11:39] Yeah I want to go back on something you mentioned in your story because I think it's also. So powerful to be able to carve your own path and make that Journey what did you say on the phone call to the Raiders. Like you you really glazed over that to say oh yeah I just uh just called them up asked to speak their legal team demanded to speak their legal team like how did that actually play out.
Dave:
[12:02] Well it played out by they didn't they didn't pick up the phone right away the the great thing about the Raiders and I'm always you know Raiders plug because I'm a huge fan but they're very controversial franchise for a variety of reasons. I'm very polarizing so they're always in the media and as a result I know every single member of the legal team by name even just as a fan, No 1 else could be could name you legal counsel for the New York Giants or the Cincinnati Bengals nobody cares but the Raiders are always in the media so I knew I didn't just say head of legal I actually referenced Jeff beer in, who's become a very close friend of mine but now he's retired but we speak almost 3 or 4 times a week. Uh 10 years later so 12 years later so I actually left him a voicemail, and did not expect to hear back and then they are was a law school event and I was out drinking and I got a 510 area code call which I knew was Oakland. Cuz like. That's just how cool I am as a personum and uh I panicked like I could pick up this phone call chances are they'll never call me back but I'm not in the right State of Mind for this I'm not at 100% capacity and this is my shot so.
Dave:
[13:16] I didn't take the call I called I called the next day uh and he did pick up and I basically explained to him, you know I'm very much aware as as much as a fan could be aware of the ins and outs of your franchise I know this does not mean much but I am a lifelong DieHard fan, my school allows me to create an internship which is an entirely accurate I figure I'll ask for forgiveness later allows me to create an internship. No money involved I already have a place to stay nearby anything that you need at all and I know that that's vague and ambiguous but they are's a reason this team's always in the media, rightfully or wrongfully you are and I'd imagine you have some sort of internship program if they are's anything that I can do to help it would be my lifelong dream and I know that I'd be of service and we went back and forth and then, we're at a third phone interview with him and the first female president in sports Amy Trask, who's uh now retired but also a legend in her own right she was on this phone call which and writing they can only have the time they they can only schedule this call when it's it's a Friday night on Eastern time and I'm driving in a snowstorm in a full car from, from Ottawa to Montreal and I have 3 of my friends in the back and.
Lauren:
[14:34] So the most peaceful environment of course.
Dave:
[14:36] Yeah and I'm doing it on like those like those douchebag Jawbone you know those you know those ones because I and I'm Driving Manual in a snowstorm and I'm like this is really. This is my test and when back and forth and my friends were kind of joking in the back I'm like if you cost me this opportunity like I I'll I'll.
Lauren:
[14:55] I'll be here this car into the ditch.
Dave:
[14:57] Exactly I devastating and ended up going really well and then. Um he basically told me on the phone that I had the job and I started to almost talked myself out of it are you sure because this is amazing but I will book my flights, and I just want to make sure this is real you have everyone else you have 7 other interns from Harvard and Cornell and then me. From Canada where you probably can point to on a map are you sure this is real I was I I couldn't stop myself it was just coming out I just had to say these things. And he said we get thousands of applicants every year as you can imagine I've been here as legal counsel since 1981 you're the only person that's ever called me. And I think from then on I'm not suggesting that in 2023 nobody cold calls but at that time I knew that I was on to something and I think what the biggest message was for me was. There's not 1 way to do something you know and in law school where everyone's getting these top jobs in law because their grades are great and maybe they don't present themselves in a way that same way that I would maybe they wouldn't or couldn't, cold call someone they couldn't deal with the rejection or the nerves like that's my skill set that's my strength.
Lauren:
[16:06] I love that you closed the deal on the phone though while saying confirming this is your legal I'm getting a verbal commitment at this moment.
Dave:
[16:15] That's right yeah if I would have been too aggressive I'd say I need this in writing that could have cost me so because I'm I'm a nobody now and I was definitely a nobody then so it was it was really amazing to kind of to lock that down but I agree I mean you don't want to, harass and be overly aggressive I'mit's hard to boost yourself up. But I just I know myself I know that I'm a genuine good person and I try to convey this, I try to convey myself as being very authentic on a call and really listen a lot more than I talk I mean this is a podcast I'm going to be doing a lot of talking but generally you can't help people unless you know, How they need to be helped I mean you need to really listen to people and I think just saying I can do this I can do this it's important to also open it up like.
Dave:
[16:56] If I'm going to be a value add to you I need to know in what way what is it that you do what do you need and can maybe I'm not the right fit for you but listening is like a really overlooked part of what we do.
Lauren:
[17:08] Yeah it's funny I feel like you're going to be a resident uh featured guest on this show because they are's a thousand.
Dave:
[17:13] I hope so I hope so yeah.
Lauren:
[17:16] I do want to make sure we get to the main topic that because again we can chat for a thousand years I have questions about your life itself uh should only Biometrics actually allow us to do that.
Dave:
[17:37] You have to do your own how-to episode yeah.
Lauren:
[17:39] Yeah yeah just interview myself on the other side and just hear how crazy I sound.
Dave:
[17:43] Somehow I feel like that would be great yeahright.
Lauren:
[17:45] To everyone's detriment .
Lauren:
[17:49] A to ZThere's No 1 way about producing a film or TV seriesbut they are are paths that currently existso since this is kind of going to be the high level overview. Can you please provide us with a description of. What I'm I'm cautious to say traditional ways of getting a film funded made everythingbecause they are is no traditional way you know what I mean.
Dave:
[18:17] There's no traditional way I totally agree with you I will say for the purposes of Simplicity maybe we separate film and television series.
Lauren:
[18:25] Completely different based.
Dave:
[18:27] Not just from a budgetary standpoint but I think just generally before we get into the details you can make a film, without certain Partners attached and then hope to sell it hence the you know hence the need for film festivals, whereas you don't make a television series and say who wants to put it on your network like, it's they're already the parties are involved from day 1 the parameters are different the budgets are typically different so maybe we'll limit this to Independent feature films because it's possible, and I see it every day independent filmmakers with little to no experience make a movie but it's it is close to impossible for 1 of those producers to just make. Of high-budget television series is no experience and it just wouldn'tit's very difficult to do so I think we should focus on feature films if that's okay.
Lauren:
[19:14] Because it's true especially now with anyone having a cell phone you can make a film the restrictions of getting they are look different of quality is a different story but if you have good storytelling you can go out and make it and having that accessibility so.
Dave:
[19:27] How do you make a movie.
Lauren:
[19:28] How do you make a movie.
Dave:
[19:30] Great question so we'll focus on Independent films and even within depending on the budget of the film it's going to look a little bit different as you mentioned they are is no traditional I totally agree with that, a budget of like a sub $2 million film will look a little bit different than like a 2 to 5. So first you need an idea I mean I think that that people always talk about like how do you get financed years like no 1's interested in anything you have to say unless you have a good story, so some producers that I represent some production companies which again for, as an asterisk production companies could be 1 to 2 person run companies like I represent a ton of them they can I can represent someone that shares a 1-bedroom apartment with 2 other people yet they have 11 companies so I think when I say production companies assume it's. You know it soon tie or formal or like brick-and-mortar location it's not.
Lauren:
[20:20] Like the picture Studio quote unquote.
Dave:
[20:24] Yeah Studios I mean almost. To some degree does not exist in Canada the way that it does in the US so first you need an idea some producers that I represent have those ideas they partner up with, a writer or maybe a writer director and then they'll be the producer then they incorporate a production company and I walked them through the process of incorporating, the company with the right share structure and everything like that and then I'll look to draft chain of title documents to reflect. Um ownership from on the individual screenwriter or whoever developed the concept or the materials transferring those rights from themselves as individuals to this company because a company can make it unless they actually own the ideas or have the rights to a certain idea, so sometimes they come to me where they already have that idea in hand or they partnered up with someone and they need someone to crystallize that, formalize in the form of like proper contracts which is what I would do.
Lauren:
[21:18] And to jump in they are why is it important that it lives within a company versus an individual like to really emphasize that.
Dave:
[21:23] It's it's a great question so anyone that wants to make anything should look to create a, production company for variety of reasons number 1 a company in Canada uh provides limited liability so in the event that you. Accidentally some people on purpose but accidentally take a misstep at any point you know intellectual property is very, fragile if someone helped develop the concept with you and they're not, you're compensated or you know you captured a Nike logo on screen and you didn't get permission anything like that and making a movie you're going to take all sorts of risks you're filming a location did you have a location release any issue that comes up, if you sign and engage all these people personallyand. You have a misstep and it results in a lawsuit they can sue you if they sue you for a million dollars even if you have $11.50 in your bank they will remain attached to you in the event of a successful lawsuit until that million-dollar debt is paid.
Dave:
[22:23] And that could be in the form of like you know uh liens on your property they are will be attached to you it looks going to impact your credit score your ability to take jobs it's a nightmare. A company allows limited liability which means that your liability is limited only to the value of the assets of your company. So if you only have $11.50 in your bank and you own the film maybe they take the rights to your film but they can't chase you personally, unless they're successful and like piercing the corporate veil which is a legal term that's topic for another day season 2 so number 1 limit limited liability, number 2 uh they are's significant tax advantages to doing so and also number 3 you're eligible, for uh for tax credits 1 of the caveats is needs to be 1 of the per the applicant needs to be a Canadian controlled company. In order to get, Federal and provincial tax credits which is why people film here uh it's a big component to your budget which we'll get to the financing in a sec so those are just the 3 main reasons but they are's they are's a few others as well so always look to incorporate a production company, and you need to have contracts in place because in Canada a copyright is automatic so if I painted a picture.
Dave:
[23:34] Um I don't need a registered if I don't want to if I painted the picture I automatically own it but companies can't automatically own, can be the author of work unless it's expressly granted in the form of a contract an author can a company can't make something creative, an individual care so if I wrote a script, I own the script I have to expressly transfer my rights I am giving the script to Lauren house production company uh they're paying me and in exchange I'm granting uh and transferring all my rights ownership rights into this uh into my work, to that company which is basically if you look at it like you're building a house these are the foundational bricks and you're going to be hiring even if it's a million dollar 2 million dollar film, 500000 you're going to be engaging dozens of people crew members, obviously people caught on camera cast anyone else that works on this project will be contributing something creatively so you have the underlying work now you now own the screenplay you own. The pitch materials everything like that, anyone else that works on it be it an actor or anything like that they're going to be transferring their ownership of their work to you so you're basically putting Brick by Brick until you own essentially the whole house.
Lauren:
[24:49] And even the same goes for let's say you're doing documentarywhere your budget is going to be a fraction of the price. You're still getting people on camera you're still going to need a few other individuals unless you are completely independent individualstill just it's goodpractice.
Dave:
[25:05] It's good practice documentaries is sometimes to some degree a different Beast because they are are certain rights where you can't obtain. You know yes if you're doing a story about someone's life you're going to want to obtain their life rights even if they didn't write a script, they're calling camera or you're talking about them but if you're doing something a little bit more controversial or polarizing like you're talking about a serial killer you may not knock on their door and ask their family member to sign agreements, because they may not Grant you those rights right they don't they're going to have no editorial rights you could be you know completely. On 1 side of the equation you could be saying all these negative things about a family member they may not want this so they are's some exemptions to , to obtaining certain rights uh which in Canada is known as the fair dealing test it's a hard threshold to reach in the US is known as fair use but they are are some situations where you you can't or you elect not to obtain rights, and it's still going to be fine legally to some degree that's very fundamental response to it but setting that aside yes.
Dave:
[26:07] Season 2 very good practice to obtain rights and not only that but once you make a project uh or throughout the co the course of production or pre-production you might have interest in a buyer be it a streaming platform like Netflix or Paramount Plus or. Or apple or you know another major player they're going to. Even if again they love the story or the film's made and they fall in love with it and they want to acquire it or license it to put on their platform it's going to be contingent on you delivering not just the film and all the technical aspects. Um but the legal delivery they don't know you they don't know the story they they've seen it they love it, but they need to make sure that you're protecting them legally you're going to indemnify them in the event of a lawsuit and then you have all intellectual property rights you have all the releases this and that because if you don't obtain a release from Nike and, I mean Netflix is going to take a it's a big risk for them what if they're exploiting this project what if they're exploring the production on their platform. Throughout the world and Nike gets wind of it Nike might sue you but they're also going to sue Netflix obviously and they don't want to take that riskso legally you have to have those boxes checked.
Lauren:
[27:14] Nowyou've Incorporated your company you have the production company you want to start shooting you have the idea you've transferred the rights to your company.
Dave:
[27:23] Yes 1 more quick anecdote before it but we talked about the scenario in which they already partner up for the IP sometimes producers just want good content and they don't have the idea so, if I'm representing them if we propose. Sending out a shopping agreement or most likely an option agreement in Canada to the actual idea owner where they chop it around, it's confusing because they would be shopping at around but it isn't a form of an option agreement you pay a small fee shop it around for a few years develop it with them potentially and if they are's legitimate interest from these which kind of brings me into financing,
Dave:
[27:59] you can make a movie without money so you need money so.
Lauren:
[28:02] You took the words out of my mouth how do you pay for it.
Dave:
[28:04] How do you pay for it so in a lot of cases they will look to pitch it around to finance years that could be private investors family and friends people that have money it couldn't be most likely the first stop the ideal stop would be streaming platforms. Because those in more than 90% of cases now they're the buyers, maybe they'll reach out to Distributors both in Canada and the United States the 2 major markets here uh looking to finance together along with, you know government agencies companies uh telephone Ontario creates cmf these are great funding opportunities for.
Dave:
[28:42] Um for independent filmmakers and then you can fill out the rest of the budget in the form of tax credits, uh they are are some creative tactics as well but that's the gist of it you have most projects under23 million have a combination of private investment, telephone Ontario creates so cmf uh and tax credits that's typically how you make up a budget so for telephone cmf Ontario creates as various, like funding envelopes you apply by certain deadlines again having they are's a long list of criteria in terms of what you have to do to apply but anyone can these are.
Dave:
[29:18] These are significant and invaluable resources for Canadians to film and finance their operation you know their projects so I think and having tax credits, all but guaranteed is I think extremely helpful they are's additional tax credit incentives such as if you film in Northern Ontario the no hfc fund very uh, very advantageous if you can apply very competitive they are's also Regional bonuses if you're filming in in Toronto but maybe outside the GTA, they are's some additional bonuses they are so they are's creative ways to look to finance unfortunately while the dream scenarios to pitch the streamers they're not it's unlikely for them to take your call as a first or second time filmmaker, you might get your project on Prime uh Prime video or Paramount Plus or Hulu or peacock or Netflix or Apple, but it may be for in the form of like a second or third window license deal it wouldn't be right off the bat they may not be involved in the ground on the ground floor to fund your.
Lauren:
[30:16] So actually I love that because how do you establish trust if you're on the ground floor you're asking you're looking for financiers of course when you have a reputation of portfolio behind you it becomes a different story but for the ones that are looking to get started. Where do you establish trust and gain experience.
Dave:
[30:32] You don't need to the great thing about the financing scenarios here is. To some degree accessible to first and second time filmmakers because, obtain a certain level of trust by a streamer to finance it is very different but if you're applying to telephone and you have a good story and you have a Canadian control company and you and it's going to be a Canadian content in terms of the requirements and criteria, and you know you get telephone funding you get Ontario creates you get a you know you pitch us to CBC which again they're 1 of many broadcasters that can actually will look at your content, for as a as a Content first from a contest content first perspective uh rather than who you are and how reputable are you,
Dave:
[31:16] uh you won't get rich off their licensing deals mind you but it's something and then all of a sudden and you factor in tax credits all of a sudden you're almost fully financed depending on the situation you know you get maybe some family and friends money uh or you do.
Dave:
[31:29] You know I don't want to suggest like an Indiegogo campaign but you're already pretty close just by applying to certain things so it's not so much about establishing trust I know plenty of first-time filmmakers that get these types of, uh of Grants and financial opportunities I will say in addition and further to that you know telephone has, a talent to watch program where they take the 30 or 40 best our most promising applicants as first-time filmmakers and they'll give them you know roughly a quarter million dollars to finance a feature film, and you know I sometimes speak at their telephone talent to watch Summit and I and I represent a lot of these uh filmmakers and I think it's wonderful that they do that that we need more opportunities like that because how can you have this great idea. Be at the ground level. Assemble a crew gain trust with all these streamers it's impossible so this basically allows you to potentially Finance your production without having those contacts.
Lauren:
[32:30] And while we're on the financing front I do want to make sure we discuss thisiida filmmaker once say to meand I've heard it more often than I would like to have heard this. Of individuals looking for private financing and they go no just find rich people and have them give you money because they just want to be affiliated with the Arts. And I'm like the business side of me is like that. And back to this Bridging the Gap of like creative and business it's like any other investment how are you going to show a return on that investment down the road. I could be corrected am I wrong that maybe that is a path for some filmmakers I personally. Comfortable with that approachbut the fact I hear it quite frequently I I wanted to spell any potential myths or misconceptions and identify how do people get a return on their film as well.
Dave:
[33:22] I think it's a really good question I'm glad you brought that up because I kind of sidestepped it a little bit when I talked about, the traditional Finance plan of maybe you have some family and friends money that could be us very small component could be a non-existing component of your budget or it could be someone who fully finances your project, now to unpack that a little bitI don't know that any producer should be looking to get into. Um a partnership with someone uh that they don't feel comfortable with or even just the underlying parameters of a relationship that they're not comfortable with I don't think it's worth it, you know I don't sometimes producers take the money now I think. As a lawyer I structured in a certain way uh so when you talk about Roi whether it's some rich person that has money that wants to be affiliated with the Arts I mean it's not the keenest investment, and whether they are fully aware of it or not it's their job to obtain legal advice and I encourage them to do it it's it's a risky investment.
Lauren:
[34:22] Film isn't a Sound Investment.
Dave:
[34:24] The same way that cannabis is a risk investment too and I think people they are's definitely some the good thing that filmmakers have in their back pocket if they do want these types of investment is they have the appeal of the industry people do want to feel be Affiliated potentially, I'm sometimes not brought in in those conversations terms of why they're investing, but they come to be with a potential investor and I walk them through what that structure is which is typically will issue them certain non-voting shares so they can actually own part of the single-purpose production company,
Dave:
[34:55] and they're going to be repaid from profits from the film so a loan for example is someone gives you money with interest and you have to pay them back by certain day.
Dave:
[35:04] A film may not make that money back you mean as a filmmaker you may you may never have that money back to pay or you have no idea when, you're going to have it back so I would be very hesitant to agree to loans where they are's a specific payment otherwise specific repayment date a maturity date otherwise you're in default I always, encourage push them in the way of an investment so they invest, uh investor invests in the project and dollars or hundred thousand dollars they get back that amount of money out of the waterfall in terms of, from profits from the film so the film is exploited whenever that is it could be 2 months after post-production it could be right after a film festival when money starts coming in we have a waterfall that's customary in this industry, you know collection account managers take their fee up the top and then you have Distributors sales agents they take their fees and expenses, if they are's certain Union or Guild residuals or royalties they get paid their their cut and then it goes to investors so they would recoup their investment in full and we would basically redeem their shares they get their money back, frankly nobody invests so that they can get their money back they do it for upside the return the ROI, so then we'll also issue them profit participation shares so once it goes to the end of the waterfall and they are's actual money left over once everything's everyone's been repaid and, all debts have been basically satisfied then they'll get you know potentially a few percentage points 5% 10% of profits, net profits down the waterfall in which they would be entitled to upside and that goes on forever so they are is upside absolutely they have to trust that.
Dave:
[36:33] The filmmaker the production company knows what they're doing and knows how to sell it and that the film is obviously good like if it's not good you it's hard it's hard to make money.
Lauren:
[36:41] Or you're passionate about the concept the idea which is another like this is while this is this conversation is geared towards the filmmaker side.
Lauren:
[36:48] If they are is someone who is interested in investing in a project like these are also the questions to ask and to ensure that this filmmakers they are versus just being passionate about the story.
Dave:
[36:57] A great and this is also sales 101 if you if you are getting someone to talk to basically consider paying you as an investor. You have to understand why it is I mean are they doing it to get rich are they doing it because they do love the Arts and if they do and they're a little bit resistant they are are some ways of which you can make this more.
Dave:
[37:16] More enticing for them to consider that could be potentially an executive producer credit, you know maybe access to a Premiere at a film festival or the world premiere give them tickets uh you know they are's other things that you can do to basically further incentivize them to really consider it, we have that if if that's like if they're in if they're interested in investing due to the Allure, you know just the excitement of the industry then play on that a little bit and that's not to manipulate them it's to give them what they're asking for you can offer these things without any, you know without any major concessions on your end and I think it'd be greatly appreciated some people love that.
Lauren:
[37:55] I'm going all the way back to win-win getting crystal clear about why people are getting involved in the project in whatever capacity.
Dave:
[38:02] So I'd say kind of continuing the a to zed.
Lauren:
[38:05] I was like we're at a.
Dave:
[38:07] We're at a to b and a half once you're fully financed.
Dave:
[38:11] Um then you need to start focusing on your attachments which Talent are you going to get typically you look to lock up, your writer producers director uh in the form of agreements which I obviously help and facilitate and prepare those and negotiate those with if the directors, very reputable or certain producer executive producer whether it be locally or someone from La certainly in the executive producer side A lot of people do that they open doors they understand the way that this is made they understand how to sell it and Market it so that's invaluable so to bring someone like them on board sometimes have to negotiate, uh with their agents or their managers sometimes them directly and a paper of those deals and then you look to obviously actors who you're going to bring on they could be.
Dave:
[38:55] Uh non-union or Guild they can be Canadian actra members they can be us sag members that you can get, to come here under certain process called Global rule 1 in which I would negotiate with their agents paper those deals and, basically lock them up under contracts that we feel is mutually beneficial sometimes these negotiations are, super smooth sometimes they are the exact opposite but that's why I'm here and I think also just not only be due to my experience, and understanding from a a composure standpoint and industries terms and what to push for and understanding how they're going to push back on certain things but also to create a bit of a buffer between, the producer my client, and the actor I mean you don't want they are to be any friction if you're paying someone a small fortune to come down here and shoot your movie you want the relationship to be amazing.
Lauren:
[39:47] Good cop bad copI got that advice early in my career is like be aware of when you need to play bad cop and when that's going to hinder it that you should have someone else playing that role especially negotiations.
Dave:
[40:00] I agreethat's not always my demeanor but in in in a very simplistic way yeah I mean I do have to be that bad cop and I I want to be for for my client, obviously the goal is.
Lauren:
[40:11] It's not demeanor based but it's they are's going to be.
Dave:
[40:12] Yeah no but I had to it's the right term to use yeah it's it's the right term to use for sure for sure but you know obviously the goal is to do everything collaboratively and to work with them because if they push too hard they know that.
Dave:
[40:27] People are gonna word gets around and you're not going to you know producers in this country are going to think twice about trying to engage them so that's just something small tip for the other side hint hint.
Lauren:
[40:35] Intense subtle.
Dave:
[40:37] So you're getting people on board and then you're looking at crew it could be lighting, the gaffer like you know uh key grip anyone that's involved makeup artist costume designer wardrobe, I would be preparing crude deal memos sometimes if these people are well established they have their agents and they push back on some things but I'm I'd smuggle to get them out, as well as all the releases that they're going to need to film and locations uh inside and outside of locations to have you know capture a scene where they are's, brands logos they are's artwork they are's photographs of family members in the back like.
Dave:
[41:11] All of this needs the necessary rights and permissions and that's my job to help them obtain it if it's a more reputable like 5 million plus budget. Typically have like a clearance supervisor clearance coordinator that will work with me their job which is amazing is like tracking down the owners of everyone and basically just Leasing, and you know if they are's a layup for me, great and if it's a shrew negotiation at least I have them on the ground because as a lawyer paying an hourly rate it's costly to it's not our job to track it down, so I think having someone on board is great but I've certainly played that role where I helped them obtain the rights and the negotiate them, and everything in between like clearance standpoint reviewing the scripts the script clearance report the title report making sure that you have the right to use the title any issues in the script, referencing real people or characters referencing previous movies or music you know again music rights what music you're going to use I would negotiate, and draft these agreements it could be a composer to do a brand new score or production company owns the rights it could also be a combination of that and.
Dave:
[42:17] Popular music Katy Perry Taylor Swift Beyoncethat they they're publishing rights are owned by certain publishing entity and , and the master recording rights would be on potentially buy separate entity by the record label so I have to negotiate multiple and reciprocal deals to get the music rights everything that you needed and basically wrap it up with the bow in terms of insurance you know insurance that you're going to need, to basically complete the package that you're going to need throughout production so that's,
Dave:
[42:46] quite zed zed would be how the hell do I exploit this film that I've now madeit's done. Sub 23 million where you're basically your Finance plan does not have major Distributors attached you have telephone Ontario crates cmf tax credits may be family and friends money. Maybe you have CBC or an equivalent to give you a small license fee where they'll have it on, you know their platform either as traditional broadcasting or through like CBC Jam maybe crave maybe you have these obligations already which they're going to help us facilitate but even if they paid for it they don't have all the rights they just have like first window under certain like maybe they just have, you know digital rights but maybe you still have a theatrical window or maybe so if you don't have it's really about filling in those blanks, chances are if you do not have any of these parties attached you just have finance and you don't have like distribution or exploitation deals.
Dave:
[43:42] The best way to basically Market it would probably be film festivals try to get into a film festival which Tiff is a little bit muskaan it's a little bit misleading because they are's a bunch of fans lined up to see stars maybe not this year, and they're in attendance but out of all the the top tier film festivals Tiff is the only 1 where fans are actually allowed to attend, usually it's the purpose of a film festival is a film is made and it's independent it does not yet have, exploitation Partners it does not have streaming attachments not backed by a studio so. Once your film's in a film festival the people in attendance are basically buyers it's like a silent auction basically, so you have streaming representatives of streaming platforms you have representatives of Distributors sales agents looking to partner up and bid on your project once they see it in the theater so that's a great way if you don't have these partners and they don't take your meetings. You have the movie already you don't have to tell them about them you don't have it you don't have to give them an elevator pitch,
Dave:
[44:38] this is what I'm working on like think about it imagine me going to a a major buyer and say I have this great idea for a painting I haven't made it yetinterested.
Dave:
[44:48] Much harder than look at this painting it's so good right so I think having something concrete a definitive piece of work that they can see is going to be a lot more helpful, it does not matter about me and my sales tactics I could be the greatest showman or salesman on Earth but it's about the project and so, to go to a film festival for it to be accepted in the film festival for you to have all your legal eyes dotted and T's crossed is significant, it gives you an error of legitimacy that maybe you didn't think you had before then so film festivals is a great route, if you don't get into film festivals I would do you know film festivals while simultaneously trying to reach out to a sales agent it's not your job to pitch your own project you should be looking to, to distributors or sales agents to actually sell your project in Canada and around the world and when I say sell it they are's many countries you can sell all of them at once or piecemeal they are's different rights, theatrical ideally theatrical first because most money is still in the box office and most major countries around the world, and then that's first window you know you have it basically hit it hitting theaters exclusivelyand then you have, a combination of you know DVD manufacturing electronic sell through buy it or rent it on Amazon or whatever and then.
Dave:
[46:07] Uh you know we could do Airlines Transportation hotels Motel, a combination of different rights and then ultimately at a streamer because frankly once it goes to Netflix no 1's going to buy the DVD, unless your special features are insane but chances are no 1's buying it so you have to focus on streaming platform I know the Allure of oh my, my movie is on Netflix is great very valuable butideally financially that should be the last stop,
Dave:
[46:36] uh unless they're willing to pay a significant amount upfront to get the first and second and third windows.
Lauren:
[46:42] Are you able to share anyinsight intostreaming's disrupted this industry. Looking at your facial expression right now going oh God which way is she going with thisum.
Dave:
[46:53] Yeah I'm ready for it as well no 1's right.
Lauren:
[46:56] You hear so many myths about how deals or how much people are getting paid for the streaming deals. Do you have any insight on to like a broad range of what people can and should expect or how those are structured especially like this is a huge component of the SAG and wga Strikes.
Dave:
[47:12] It is yeah I mean for. Yes you're absolutely right so most streaming services do not offer residuals which is the reason why a lot of individuals be it writers or top tier actors work on projects. In 99% of circumstances unless you're talking about like the Hollywood Elite they're not getting richfor their fees to do the work right like a writer could be even if. You know in Canada like a WGC writer if you're getting like 60 70 for script it might take you a couple of years to write it or a full year to write it and 60 70k, great but I mean to live you and to flourish you know they are's the other incentives the bonuses the back end so if someone writers and actors often get paid a percentage of net profits same way that investor would as well. The problem is.
Dave:
[48:01] Those profits come from again from every time in traditional television every time a show is made uh an aired on a every time a show is aired on a certain. Uh channel for example with advertising Revenue it's quantifiable this is how much money they are is in terms of profits all the way down the waterfall this how much this actor gets this how much this writer gets, every time Seinfeld is shown every time friends is shown that's more and more monies royalties residuals that these individuals get so the money keeps coming the upside is they are.
Dave:
[48:31] Streaming platforms don't offer they don't show their data and algorithm if 1 person saw your movie or 10 million people saw your movie they are's no back end. So it all comes down to what they're willing to pay up frontnow when you talk about a structure they are's only 2 real structuresthey're either acquiring the rights or they're licensing the right, if they're acquiring the rights that that means they own the IP they own the project meaning that, if Netflix acquires the rights it can be on any other platform it can't be they're going to decide what they're going to do if they decide to do merchandising or a sequel or prequel they own the rights now.
Dave:
[49:08] In perpetuity they bought it from the producers, so with that comes you know an acquisition fee it's typically much higher because you're not just getting the rights to show it on your platform you're owning it you're controlling the universe that's why that's also another hesitation point, of independent filmmakers pitching it because even if it's a good concept even if you can get those meetings, they're going to say yeah we'll just buy it from you we'll turn it into a Netflix original like we love the idea but we don't know you we don't trust that you are going to make and we're just going to sit here and hope it's good, we're going to infiltrate this process like we will turn this into a Netflix original we might keep you on that person that person and pay you based out of the budget which is great. We need to own it we need to have decision-making Authority with respect to how it's going to be made, you know it'd be great our production team could make this or we we have connections to that studio that production company that can make this for us you know that we're going to use our Pros production team so they will take over.
Lauren:
[50:03] And even in that case just to jump in they are is because you and I have talked about this offlineyou actually are signing ndas as the person watching walking in and pitching. And saying oh hey they are's a clause that says we may already have an idea in production that similar to yours because we get pitched all the time, and I'm not being like for legal purposes I am not accusing anybody of anything but it is a fair reality of why you have to sign those things going into the pitch meetings that. You may not be asked yeah we'll buy it from you they are is a chance no matter who you're pitchingI don't know you course correct me here.
Dave:
[50:40] I know you're Absolut right instead of a 98 they they basically referred to it as a submissions policy or a submissions release, you do know that we get pitched 10,00 projects a year plus we may have our own team that's developing Concepts, year in year out it's very possible that we make a movie with another main character named Doug who has these you know emotional and character traits or maybe we may be making a TV series with a similar plot and premise you forgo your right to sue, and I don't suspect sometimes I'm a little bit naive in it I don't suspect that they have ideas to steal projects like I just. No 1 has been put in that situation under myyou know mymy care uh like my client base it just hasn't happened to them and. Make sure that it never happens to them but yes they do have to sign those releases so they are is that risk that just so you know it's possible that 7 years from now you might see something on Netflix that you have.
Lauren:
[51:33] That's similar enough.
Dave:
[51:34] Yeah again I'm not I'm not suspecting any Foul Play I really am not but that's a risk that people take even if it does not happen it's still they do have to sign a submission. And if I was legal counsel to Netflix I'd be urging him to do it as well it's way too risky way too risky otherwise it's just too much volume.
Lauren:
[51:50] There are only so many stories that can be told that are like adjacent to each other that it absolutely makes sense so that's good to kind of dispel the myth of like oh don't be afraid of pitching but if you do see something down the road don't assume it was necessarily.
Dave:
[52:03] That's right yeah that's absolutely right I think that that's the correct response to it now I think back to what these.
Lauren:
[52:08] I'm sorry tangent thank you.
Dave:
[52:10] No I anytime I think uh just to go back to it they are's 2 structures really they are's the acquisition which they're going to own it and then they are's a license deal. It could be exclusive license for the first 8 codes you're going to go straight to Netflix exclusively no other platform for 2 years it could also be a non-exclusive license deal and the third window, so you know after a year after it's been exploited whatever sure we'll take it I mean uh we'll take it and it's not exclusive so you can also put it on Amazon if you like, so depending on exclusivity depending on the timing depending on if it's first window or second window or later, depending on obviously the caliber of the project the budget how they think it's going to help them, are from business table 1 depending on if it's a license or acquisition the range of upfront fees is unlimited honestly like I would love to answer that question say it's between, 600k but all of these terms are completely dependent if it's a, you know if it's a second window license deal and it's exclusive you might be looking at a couple hundred K uh but again you're also by territory.
Dave:
[53:16] Is it going to be us it's going to be North America depending on the territory or territories they're paying for more worldwide it's going to be more because now you can't sell it, on the territories you've just now sold it to 1just like standard Commerce it's going to go depending on how much they're asking for it's going to cost more from their end, what people try to do in anticipation of the strike for at least a year year and a half is offer, writers and you know potentially showrunners and television series uh an actors, a streaming bonus or a series sale bonus let's just take the streaming bonus but in the event that it's acquired by a streaming service.
Dave:
[53:57] Because they know they're not going to get residuals, they will pay you you know an upfront fee of an additional upfront fee it could be 20K it could be 40K 50k depending on the budget uh but that's your forgoing your right to get royalties I mean obviously an actor is not going to have any approval rights to like. Nick's ideal so you have to you have no choice but to go along with along for the ride but at least it's a consolation you'll get some money up front but don't expect royalties. But it was it's been brewing to this moment the music industry figured it out almost right away terms of residuals and royalties, 4 and it's much more convoluted because for every musical track they are's a composition which has its own royalties and residuals and then they are's the mass recording side, it's on royalty and residuals every time 1 track has played on any of these music platforms they are's some type of algorithm and data that's being disclosed and agencies uh and organizations that are collecting royalties and paying them out, it's not a perfect system but at least it exists and here we are in film and television where it does not still so, that is certainly 1 of the main that is probably the major issue for the strikes but now while that they are is a strike while strike exists I should say. Um the wga and sag have certain pushed additional terms and the second biggest 1 is AI.
Lauren:
[55:15] I feel like I'm opening Pandora's box right now where it's like this is a separate our special and I I do want to like we brought it up.
Dave:
[55:24] That's a separate special.
Lauren:
[55:26] It's oh God I got to check your time when you have to be at the door which ironically we're technically over time.
Dave:
[55:31] I have a few more minutes yeah I'm yeah yeah for sure.
Lauren:
[55:32] Few more minutes umheadline of 2 to explain what is happening and why it's so critical that AI is also part of these strikes.
Dave:
[55:43] AI is evolving quicker than peoplethat are not in AI had hoped and, they are is a fear when when an actor or writer let's just say for actors for example, when they sign over the rights to uh user Services we talked about IP right intellectual property rights and everyone's contributing creatively so as a result you're paying them and in exchange they're going to. Basically uh transfer or sign their ownership that they have to their their IP ownership they have to their work to you so that you can use it and.
Lauren:
[56:17] Is that a fire alarm.
Lauren:
[56:28] Oh oh we'll get into.
Dave:
[56:29] So yeah she was she went hard in the paint for me like she was just like do who are you know no you can't come up here they they called you and they're like nothey called 608 and they said you're not that's weird.
Lauren:
[56:43] Oh God yeah no she fully told Dave she's like you're not expected and then you're not allowed to wait here you have to go wait over in this area.
Dave:
[56:52] Sorry they called your boyfriend to say that someone's coming up to your roomyou have to is they are any damage control on now.
Lauren:
[56:57] I hear it now that you've said it out loud.
Dave:
[57:01] Like Tom they are's a guy Dave hereyeah.
Lauren:
[57:04] As soon as you left for work uh.
Dave:
[57:07] Yeah yeah so.
Lauren:
[57:12] Okay third time's the charmAI.
Dave:
[57:13] Okay ai ai so actors when they're creating. When they're basically performing their services is acting for a movie they are transferring they're getting paid and as a result they're transferring and assigning ownership of their IP, to you the production company they're also waiving their moral rights which is something that goes in every single contract which basically states that they have no. For IP protection Copyright Act, individuals that are transferring or signing ownership of their IP also have an additional right called moral rights which is even if they transfer the rights it's a further protection protective measure for them which allows them to basically try to interfere. Um the work that's portrayed in a way that isthat goes against their moral. Guidance or beliefs so if you assign the rights or services and all of a sudden you're re-editing and putting into Like a Porn like a porn, you know deeply religious they might try to interfere with it yes I give you the rights but I didn't waive my moral rights and you're using in a way that is again contrary to my. My moral compass or whatever so uh again more of a a legal discussion.
Dave:
[58:24] Legally speaking as a production Council I always put in every single project every contract you have to have waiver of moral rights okay so in addition to transferring of IP. You're also going to have the right to use their name image and likeness in connection with the film so you could snip. Behind the scenes footage or even a part of the movie to use in the trailer or to take us take a shot and put it in you know for the poster art or any marketing promotional efforts that's General and that's accepted. But now with AI they can take. Dialogue they could take someone's face or you know entire body and basically move them in different situations and engage in conversations or action shots in which it wasn't even the actors doing. And that's where it becomes a little bit scary because like yes I gave you the IP to use me I filmed 5 scenes this is exactly it use it cut it modify it that's cool.
Dave:
[59:17] Don't take my image and create something else entirely without paying me like I didn't sign off on it I have no idea what you're using that for and people can create new footage and maybe it's its own thing hey we have Brad Pitt's rights let's actually do a 5 minute short of him just.
Dave:
[59:33] Prank calling people and we he didn't film this but we have his AI is basically modifying it using someone that looks exactly like him to do additional work we don't even need him for the sequel let's just, get a AI maybe in 2 years from now ai will have the capacity and evolve as quickly that it can actually create certain scenes recreate certain scenes so to do things without their permission to, which that could be again is ancillary rights in connection with the movie itself so. Different images for merchandising or audio for a hot take or you know marketing promotional material additional footage on social media or it could be the right to create, additional projects sequels prequels like oh you know we're going to do a sequel we can get a hold of them but we can use AI to make them look ten years younger and to create this scene we'll just do that at no additional compensation so their concern that AI is not being properly governed and managed, being on the other side and I just had a panel at at osgoode with other entertainment lawyers who were just kind of joking you know in front of everyone. Whoever comes up with the best AI Clause let's just trade notes here because we're in this together this we're we're all this is Uncharted Territory what Clause would allow our producer to take certain rights that's also, allowed permissible so we're kind of waiting and seeing personally AI scares the crap out of me. Um and I understand the actress position like it's it's kind of terrifying.
Lauren:
[1:01:00] It it's interesting because I heard an argument that was made for why wouldn't an actor be for this if it means say hypothetically in a series maybe you'll film 2 episodes and AI can complete the remaining 8. So you're going to do less work for more money why wouldn't you want that is the argument I've heard it's fair exceptmy bone to pick with it. Is it defeats the sense of purposeof why someone chooses to be in this industry. It's not about having your faceplastered on a screen and and you look for some people by all means it absolutely is about ego. But for majority of individuals in a creative space Not Just actors I'll speak to the acting perspective, it is about the process it's about human connection it's about what's happening on set because what people don't see is that you may not be working 11 months out of the year but you're 30 60 maybe 90 days if you're lucky on set throughout the year. It comes from connection and we are so preoccupied, with I can go on a soap box about this we are with Hyper optimization and efficiency. That always isn't the best solution for human purpose.
Dave:
[1:02:16] It's really well said I think you also are I don't want to sayunique in this sense I always commend you for having a very strong,
Dave:
[1:02:25] uh and determined head on your shoulders like you have a strong moral compass even the way that you articulated about being generally uncomfortable with a rich person financing a movie it's not for me to tell you that that's right or that's wrong I think you have to be authentic and honest with yourself and so. I understand that position and I agree with it this 1 I I really uh agree with it, I would say generally speaking this industry with the volume of content that we have sometimes it's LED more creatively and sometimes it's Med more meaty more from a business standpoint, I wouldn't judge an actor if they said if they're so established or if they're not as creatively focused and they they look at it more of a bit from a business lens and they say.
Dave:
[1:03:04] They want to pay me to do it and I don't have to be on set I could be interested in it I wouldn't judge them or shame them for it I think some people are really more creative and some people are more business but I would say, so because of that I don't believe that sag and all of its members share the exact same view on AI I have a view on AI every actor if you line up 10 of them they all have different takes on it. So Sags position is not AI cannot exist in this industry it's if you want the rights and you're paying for it it has to be controlled and clearly articulated in the agreement, so and again subject to negotiation 1 actor if they're very creative I just might say yeah it's great that it's now in our Collective Agreement but I'm not doing AI I don't want you doing Ai and that's absolutely fine that's part of the negotiation, the same time some you know in the same breath sometimes Talent they want exclusive Transportation on set they don't want to sit next to anyone aside from not for me to say, it's abysmal or it's ridiculous it's for me to say to push back if we can't afford it but people have preferences that could be a preference but we're trying to find a way.
Dave:
[1:04:08] We can't deny. The emergence of AI and I think the goal for sag is to really successfully control it and at least that's a minimum terms in this agreement that's what these Collective Agreements are.
Dave:
[1:04:20] Wga agreement sag agreement their minimum terms it's not this is how it's going to be for every single engagement it's that, these These are the minimum terms and standards in which you the production companies need to respect uh in terms of being able to engage them, you can't step on itminimum terms if the actor does not want it AI then they're not going to agree to it and you have to find someone else can make them agree to it. Again it's people have different perspectives on it and it's really about unfortunately we can't stop AI it's coming and it's already here frankly . And it's going to continue to evolve yeah so I think just being able to set some parameters around how it can be used, and restricted in this industry is of Paramount importance.
Lauren:
[1:05:08] Well and it's better like if it is not positioned as being restricted it's harder to roll back. Any allowances that are granted now that it's just being precautionary because I agree it's not necessarily. It's coming please don't stick your head in the sand learn about AI know about what's coming in the industry because this is the inevitable you know dare I never get a sponsorship from them in the future Kodak example. If you don't think if it's no no no no no digital film is never going to disrupt our industry we're absolutely fine film will always be the way like be aware that changes may happen what it could look like in the future. Um God I've gone so over time with you today Dave that I want to be mindful and respectful of your time I I you and I can talk for.
Dave:
[1:05:51] Yeah a while yeah.
Lauren:
[1:05:53] Oh yeah which is why hence season 2 3 34 Dairy be around this world that long hopefully.
Dave:
[1:05:58] If you would love to have me back I'd love to be back and I think it's just it's been such a great experience to chat about it I think you know when I talked about my passion what I do I think that also just extends. Not just to my clients but and prospective clients obviously but just people in the industry transparency and understanding you know the nuances of these things it's just it's not it does not it's not that it does not resonate with people it's just, they are's it's a black box and the doors are either closed or they feel closed to a lot of producers access to information is important and I speak at a lot of. Um you know even film schools institutions because I'm trying to be able to clear a path in which they can gain knowledge gain resources look to build your team you could be the greatest most established producer in the universe, they all have, they all have access to resources or they know how to get those access to those resources be it hiring the right team members obviously at some point bring on production Council, you know business Affairs having a line producer to actually who knows how to actually produce boots on the ground Productions so this is all part of, making contentNo 1 can do this alone this isn't I keep talking about a painter example it's a horrible example in retrospect.
Lauren:
[1:07:12] By following it.
Dave:
[1:07:13] 1 person can paint right it's just so I think generally speaking you have to find. The resources and find the information and if you don't know how to get to it then find the person bring them on board who will help bring this information resources to you.
Lauren:
[1:07:29] I'm going to force a Shameless plug T upwho are your clientsand who should reach out to you if they have questions.
Dave:
[1:07:36] Sure umproduction companies that could be individual producers who want to set up a production company or establish production companies of any budget size, also Talent sometimes we talked about option agreement how do you get the idea sometimes I represent screenwriters or script writers for television series and if Studio or production company that I don't represent,
Dave:
[1:07:57] reaches out to them to acquire the rights or to send them a shopping agreement or an option agreement so talent in this industry writer producer actor director.
Dave:
[1:08:07] Or a production company that would bethat would make up the majority of my client base I also, uh do represent influencers uh and social media social media stars and I do represent athlete just because I come from a professional sports world and I do live event deals for sport sporting events but, in the context of what we're talking about film and television both sides of the table to the extent that they are's no conflict I represent and the thing is the network for entertainment lawyers is small, Rock Solid, when I start out they are were 12 13 entertainment lawyers in private practice now they are's about 25 to 35 uh I have a good relationship with most of them and a lot of them are just fantastic so, if you reach out to me and they are's a conflict like hey I got this option deal from this company oops I represent that company it's no problem at all not only what I refer give you names but I also refer and potentially introduce you to, you know so my competitors because we don't look at each other like that, this industry what goes around comes around you want to be a good person they are are really smart and knowledgeable entertainment lawyers besides myself and I'd be happy to to introduce you in the event that they are's a conflict but you have to find the right person the right.
Dave:
[1:09:16] Personality you know so I think that that's important too we all have different styles our different approaches to things but a lot of knowledgeable people so.
Lauren:
[1:09:25] And where can people find you and just get kind of keep up with the stuff especially as you share like you post great stuff on LinkedIn uh where's the best place to kind of keep up with what you're working on.
Dave:
[1:09:33] I would say the worst place to find me is IMDb because while I get credit for every movie and television series I work on I Am David Stern 28.
Lauren:
[1:09:43] Great.
Dave:
[1:09:45] And it's not even out of 28 it's out of like 39. My name is just so generic that's that's on my parents so don't find me on IMDb but I'm the head of the sports Entertainment Group at blainey McMurry so bla ney.com, you'll find my name they are on LinkedIn too hopefully I'm 1 of 700 David Stearns that you'll be able to find but Dave CERN on blainey would be the best way to find.
Lauren:
[1:10:09] BeautifulDave thank you so much.
Dave:
[1:10:11] Thank you this has been amazing I'm so happy to participate.
Lauren:
[1:10:12] Oh my gosh so I'm looking forward to the multiple following episodes and you mentioned influencers and real quick like that's another conversation I want to have with you is around how people what they should be looking out for in contracts when so many people are managing their own contracts whether they are micro or big. Ya you should have a lawyer in your cornerShameless plug but B also if you can't afford it yet what do you what do you look out for.
Dave:
[1:10:35] Yeah and don't go don't jump right into farting in jars on only fans. Because I think that they are's better ways they are's better ways yeah don't you dare don't.
Lauren:
[1:10:45] Well shit that eliminates the conversation I was just going to have with you.
Dave:
[1:10:48] Yeah that season 2 That season 2 farting in jars feed picks uh no but in all seriousness I think that landscape requires a lengthy discussion and it's very fascinating and Ever Changing and I'd be happy to talk about.
Lauren:
[1:11:02] Round 2 round 2thanks Dave.
Dave:
[1:11:03] Round 2 thanks Lauraall right.
Lauren:
[1:11:09] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode if you don't mind this is my Canadian self asking to like share leave a little review wherever you are listening to this podcast that little bit of love goes a long way. Thank you for your time for listening and if you would like to hear a very specific how-to in the future please don't hesitate to reach out.
