Howe To Be a Natural History Cinematographer
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Howe To Be a Natural History Cinematographer w/ Jeffrey Garriock
SUMMARY
Jeffrey Garriock, @jeffreygarrioock, is a Cinematographer specializing in natural history and science-based projects, particularly underwater work. The conversation covers his career, advice on creating a thriving, creative work environment, notable projects with National Geographic, Rolex and Giants of Africa, and his passion for underwater cinematography.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Today's conversation is with 1 Mr. Jeff Garriock. Now Jeff is a Toronto-based director and cinematographer or as I like to call him the real life Dos Equis man. He focuses on Natural History and Science space projects specializing in underwater work because of his passion for the ocean. Jeff has worked in making films in professional sport with National Geographic and in over 70 countries around the world. I mean, he has shot everywhere from inside the Chernobyl nuclear power plant to the Antarctic Peninsula to working with giants of Africa and Messiah you giri and the incredible work that they do to working with whale sharks in galapos with a man named Jonathan Green who was 1 of the featured stars in BBC's, uh Blue Planet Too. Like Jeff is Dos Equis increasingly attracted to conservation stories. Jeff hopes to shine a light on situations that need our attention even those that may seem quite far away from our regular lives.
This is less of a methodical how-to and more of a conversation with Jeff about his journey Lessons Learned along the way so broadly it is how to be a natural history cinematographer. We talk about how we got to start how each stage of his career evolved. What are the most important elements of booking a job as a creative? How do you resolve conflict which inevitably will occur when you're working in high stress environments on set with a team? How do you tell a good story and that goes for anybody whether or not you're a creative or you're someone who's just looking to tell a good story at a dinner table?
What makes a decent a bad or a great story? How do you do it in less than 30 seconds commercial?
Sorry about that and 1 last Quick caveat about this conversation. There were about 3 small technical errors that occurred in the first 5 minutes, but from there, it's smooth sailing. So if you hear something funky that's what's going on. We've tried to fix it on the back end we've done as best we can but you may notice it.
But it does not happen the entire episode. I promise.
Let's get into it. This is how to be a natural history cinematographer with Jeff Garriock.
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00:02:36:20 - 00:02:54:12
Lauren: What's official title that you like to be called?
Jeff: That was it. Nature. Cinematographer.
Lauren: Cinematographer. We are here today. I like what that suddenly got to like a morning show. Like not even actually you're here. It was like the like the midnight hour like hey welcome. We got smooth jazz at the beginning of a meditation podcast.
00:02:54:12 - 00:02:58:00
Jeff
Yeah. Well wow. You're here today to clear our minds. Dive deep
00:02:58:00 - 00:03:09:17
Lauren
I did see that you were on a recent podcast talking about this of just it's also about working with good people. And that's such a predominant part of the creative industry. It's not necessarily your individual skill set. Of course that matters because you have to show up and do the job.
00:03:09:17
Jeff
But it's who you are as a person. Yeah. The way I said it to James just recently was I would much rather work with the fourth or fifth best person if they're going to be nice than the best person if they're going to be a dick. Because if you're going to put in 14 hour days with somebody, especially on on an unnatural history type shoot, where often you're living in really difficult conditions, you're in a tent in on the Greenland ice sheet, or you're on a boat where the room is only big enough for one of you to stand up at any given time.
Do you do you want to get along with that person? And it's a much better experience for you and for the end product if you get along. Because if you're sitting there and you're clashing at every moment with somebody who's very difficult to be around, the work is going to suffer. Even if, like you know, you having bad times to one side, the work is going to suffer.
And if you go there, have a terrible time and produce something you aren't proud of, then what's the point? So I'm much I'm a big believer in working with people that you like. I think everything is raised by you being in a good mood most of the time. What's your advice for people on set, whether it's actually set or in your case, also in nature and in the wild?
00:04:11:19
LAUREN: It's not really a production set, but you're live in the moment. That was a terrible way of raising that question. That was a nice little life in the moment. At the moment. Wow. I'm live in the moment right now. Remind me to have, like, more coffee. no. But when you are working with a crew and with a team, of course, they're just being nice and being a good baseline human.
00:04:29:23
JEFF: But say like some conflict starts to bubble up of just personality differences. What do you notice makes the biggest difference when you're working on those teams beyond just the baseline? Be a good human. Talk about it and talk to the person in question about it. Because what inevitably happens is this so-and-so, you go back to your room or you go, you know, coffee in the corner and you bitch about it to somebody else.
You're like, oh, man, are you having a problem with so-and-so? I'm having a problem with so-and-so. And then you're like, yeah, I am that way. They did this and they did this, and it's like, oh, you know, for me, they did this. And then everyone's just getting all the rage out. And then you go back to the set and then the person is there again.
And instead of having resolved the problem, you've doubled down because you're like, not only did they do the thing I didn't like, but they did the thing that they didn't like. And now both of us are mad. And you look at the other person you've conspired with and you're like, yeah, screw them. And that's not helping. So it's go to the person, be like, hey, you spoke to me in this particular way, and I wasn't super thrilled.
I don't mean to be on your bad side. I don't want to do anything that's going to disrupt us. I want us to get along because we're going to be doingthis for three more days. But just so you know, I wasn't super happy with that. But if you want me to get this done, please don't hesitate to ask me.
You know, just ask me in this way or just just like, go to the person and deal with it. like, this is how we're going to solve this.
We're going to talk about this and we're going to work through this.
LAUREN: Would you also say that checking your ego is a huge part of it? I have very little ego to begin with. I mean, not you in particular, but generally, I don't know. I mean, I think that's good advice all the time. Like, I feel like ego is generally more tangled up in individual.
JEFF: No, that's. No, I don't want to say that I think checking your ego is always, always a good piece of advice. I can't think of a situation where having quite a lot of ego is going to be the thing that makes a positive impact. Maybe if you're fighting with a giant, monolithic studio about getting your vision across. But even then, usually it's because you're fighting for the efforts of an enormous team who's tried to make something very difficult with very little money over very difficult conditions.
So I think it's always good to check your ego. Yeah. And I think there's always a chance that people's ego is in their blind spot. How do you mean? People may not recognize when ego is playing a part and the importance of self-awareness. Being open to criticism. When someone approaches you about something you might have done, is to not let your ego get in the way to receive that where it's not necessarily because I hear you on the ego was never going to get the job done right.
LAUREN: Rarely. I shouldn't say never. Yeah, never. Never. No, never. But to make sure we're all aware of our own blind spots in when it comes to ego, of the way I want to get it done, the way in what my position is in this role in job like that. The way you could have approached those two models is, nope, this is the way it's going to be my way or the highway, but to approach it in a very diplomatic manner, while still enforcing the scenario in the case and just painting a picture like that's a non egotistical way of approaching it versus someone may say, I have this title, too bad my way the highway
JEFF: I yeah, I just can't imagine a situation where that makes makes it better, you know? And then yeah, no, I said, well, this is what I mean about why it's always because I can, I if I could have stormed in there. I mean, like, I'm the director and this is my ship and you've agreed to this and screw you all and you're going to sit down.
Shut up. An actor faces off. I just don't. Then everybody's upset. I thought that's exactly how we should do it. Maybe in the, I don't know, like a 1950s black and white film. I'm the director. Yeah. You know, I'll sit down and shut up and we'll get this film on the road, so I. What am I to back?
00:07:58:21
LAUREN: Because we did kind of like, get straight into the weeds. How did you end up where you are today? What's a very big question I know are are you ready for five hours of a conversation? But generally, where did filmmaking first come into play for you and why? Specifically cinematographer fee is the choice within this industry? Okay, like that's more I can deal with that a bit better.
00:08:17:10
JEFF: Filmmaking was sort of just a recreational thing in high school, so we had a friend named John Hooper, whose parents had a video camera, and myself and Kirk, who is a filmmaker, and we still work together to this day and are still good friends to this day. The two of us and John Hooper would basically stay and have like a sleepover at John's house, and we would make stupid films with his parents camera.
And I'm talking about like, very stupid things about vampires and hobos who save the Earth and that sort of thing. And it was great fun, but it was the sort of thing where, like, I'd never I'd never thought of that before. I'd never had the means before. And then we got into this and was like, oh, this is really great, actually.
What a wonderful and exciting thing. And then I think it was probably I had the same year, the following year where we had a class called Media Arts, and we basically were it was like making a film as part of this class, and we were like, we were doing that already for fun. And it was kind of the first time anybody had said to me that this could be your job.
And I had always thought it was just a fun hobby or something you would do on the side, or that sort of thing. I was shocked because a job when you're in high school, you've no idea what a job is actually like. And the job that I have now didn't exist then. So it was the sort of thing where, yeah, it was it did open my eyes to the fact that spending your time working on these things and learning how to do these things might actually be really valuable in the future.
Like that's something that that could get you work and get you paid and you could do that all the time. So that was really exciting to me. The second part of your question again, why cinematography specifically? that came later on because I was very much the editor in those early days, because I was the one who had the computer that could actually do the stuff, and I was the only one who figured out, like, because it was we were shooting tapes.
Then it was it was like a not HD cam. What was it, DV, DVC Pro, DVC Pro HD, I don't remember, it doesn't matter. format that doesn't exist anymore. Uno's mini DV. I'm sorry. That's what it was. So you shoot on these mini DV tapes for this very bizarre half digital tape. But at the end of the day, it's a tape that you have to put in a thing and playback.
So you'd have to capture footage in real time. So you plug the camera into the computer, and then you press record on the computer, and then you play the tape. And so if it didn't work or it skipped or it broke or you wiggled the cord a little bit, you'd have to start again. And nobody else had the patience for this except for me.
So I was the one who kind of figured out how to do this, and then figured out how to use it was Adobe Premiere at the time, I think it was premiere 3.00 and and learning how to do this type of stuff. And so I was I and I was like, editing is so interesting because we didn't always know what we were doing when we were making a film.
We were just doing stuff that we thought was silly or fun, and I was like, oh, if you play this clip backwards, it can make it look like this person's doing this instead of doing this. And so just like learning how stuff worked, and I did really enjoy that. But when I got into the real world, I realized especially my first proper job was working at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, where they are the pen company of Leafs Raptors, Toronto FC, as you know.
Well, the fun stuff was being with the camera, doing the interesting thing, because then you're out with person who's a professional athlete or you're out in the community somewhere, or you're at some giant event, or you're at some contest, or you're at a game and doing all kinds of fun stuff, and the editing is you by yourself in a dark room for hours and hours and hours.
And I as much as it's great to be building a story and and creating something from end to end, especially in that context where most of the time you're either creating a sports based story, which is always what goes into the net, and home team wins in some fashion or another, or it's an ad where the story is by this product and have a better life, so it's not as exciting as it is when you're making a short film or making a documentary and you're like, learn about this incredible endeavor by this person, or like feel for the this difficult relationship, or people are trying to overcome something.
It's the same story, the same story, the same story. So I think that also helped had played a big role in disillusioning me from editing, because I wanted to be out doing the cool thing in the cool place. That was way more interesting to me. Like, I want to meet the strange athlete, and I want to talk to people and I want to do all that sort of thing, so that the reason I ended up doing cinematography was because I wanted to spend my day in the interesting place, doing the interesting thing.
MLSE you have this realization I want to be in the action. I want to be with individuals and a part of the story as it's happening.
LAUREN: What happened next?
JEFF: So I had a wonderful series of coincidences where I went to the movies, and I saw an ad at the beginning of the movie that would just looked like a cool travel thing, and I didn't really understand what it was, just a lot of cool experiences jammed together, like all over the world, for a company called G adventures.
And then the following day, by just unbelievable coincidence, I got their brochure through the door of the house, and I was like, oh, that's weird. And so I had a look and I'm like, oh, it's a travel company. Okay, I wonder if they're hiring. And they were hiring for a filmmaker editor to go and travel the world and do that sort of thing.
And I was like, well, this is like the job of my dreams. I can't believe they're hiring. And sure enough, like, after, you know, a couple of interviews, I beat out 3000 people and I got hired, which was unbelievable. And I still do it for them. I'm going to do some work for them two weeks from now, which is wonderful because they're really great tight knit group.
And it's a lot of the same people who are still there from the time that I was there. And yeah, I still really dig the, the ethos of the company and that sort of thing. But I went over there and on my third day of work, we went to Indonesia. and it was sort of that from then on in like 4 or 5 times a year, we were off into the world, shooting travel promos, which was amazing.
00:14:15:21
LAUREN: What set you apart? But do you think with 3000 people,
JEFF: I don't know, I know, I know what my boss has told me, that one of the things was that I could shoot underwater. and I had that in the reel because that my great dream was always to shoot underwater. And I done one thing for a friend who started a dive company in Iceland, and it was when I was still trying to get going, and he was like, hey, you should come and shoot a video for us for this dive company.And I was like, that sounds like the greatest thing ever. We don't have any money, but if you can come to Iceland, you can stay with me, and you can dive as much as you like. And I was like, well, that's a pretty good deal. So I went and we did this, like promo. So I'm thinking this will be like a showpiece that'll help, you know, get me in the door on the next step.
And I sounds like it probably did help. So I had shot some travel stuff, just traveling on my own. Like I drove across Canada and I shot a bunch of stuff, and I drove, like I went to Japan on my own and shot a bunch of stuff. Just being like, this is what I would love to be doing.
So I had something to show, and everything that I had to show was something that I had just done on my own, which when I was showing it felt like it was a weakness because I was thinking, oh well, I haven't even done any actual work. This is all stuff I've just done for fun. But looking back now, I feel like it's probably a strength because it was more like, oh, even for fun, he wants to be doing this, you know what I mean?
So that's one of the things. And other than that, I don't know. I think I just got lucky because it's the 3000 people is a lot of people. And I was I'm, I look back at some of the stuff I was doing that and I'm like, London wasn't that good, you know what I mean? I'm also my own worst critic.
But yeah, I think I just lucked into it. Right? Like there wasn't a story of you saying, well, I found the name of this person and I made sure I reached out to them, get coffee like it was the real that made you stand out. I hope so, make it. I think I interviewed okay as well, but I mean, I don't know, I really don't know.
I think it was just like, yeah, yeah, the right thing at the right time. I love that advice though, because it is true. Like when you are getting started, especially if you're in any type of creative field, you kind of have to show in order to tell. Like you have to have the work done. You hear it over and over and over, pick up the camera, stop just studying what to do.
00:16:17:07 - 00:16:40:20
Unknown
I'm my own hypocrite in this department too, where it's there's so much we just want to add, and we sometimes wait for the moment and permission to be like, oh, I have this opportunity, especially paid. And how often where do you find that balance? I'd say this is a two parter, one at the beginning of your career in free work for the experience and paid knowing your worth and then to where you are now.
00:16:41:00 - 00:16:58:13
Unknown
I mean, I'm still doing some work for free every now and then, which is, you know, not something I thought I'd be saying at 36, but it is what it is. But the way I always describe it to people is there is a spectrum like this. And when you're especially when you work for yourself on the one end of the spectrum is the greatest job in the world.
00:16:58:13 - 00:17:17:22
Unknown
It's exactly the thing you want to be doing. You love every second of it and there's no money. And on the other end of the spectrum is the most soul crushing corporate bullshit that you don't care about, and neither does the person asking you to do it. It just needs to be done. And there's tons of money. And the goal is that you want to be here in the middle with the best of both ends, but that's not always possible.
00:17:17:22 - 00:17:37:11
Unknown
So what I usually try to do is just enough of the corporate stuff so that I can keep the lights on when I'm doing the joyful, wonderful, exciting stuff. So of course, the dream is eventually I want to be right in the middle where it's exactly what I want, and it pays the bills. And like more and more, I'm finding that's the case.
00:17:37:11 - 00:17:55:14
Unknown
There are jobs where I'm like, this is amazing, and it's lucrative enough that I'm, you know, like the mortgage is paid and the equipment is paid down and that sort of thing, but sometimes it's not. And so you pick up a couple of jobs that you maybe not be thrilled with necessarily, so that when the right opportunity comes along and now we don't have the budget we'd hoped for, but it's exactly what you want.
00:17:55:14 - 00:18:25:03
Unknown
You can say yes with confidence. I love that you kind of have from an outsider's perspective. You found a really cool balance, though, in the stories that you tell now, and I think about some of the clients in the work that you do, and I'm intentionally not saying which clients I want work because I'm curious which one you give first as an example, that it is that blend of story telling meets travel, but it's still sponsored in a way that everyone is getting paid.
00:18:25:05 - 00:18:43:12
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, the best example is probably the one you're thinking of is Rolex. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, but I started working with them in 2016, and I still work with them once or twice a year, and which is amazing. And now they've got a partnership with Mission Blue, which is Sylvia Earle's organization, and they do amazing amplification of voices in the ocean conservation community.
00:18:43:12 - 00:19:12:10
Unknown
And so that's really brilliant because Rolex is all about giving grants to scientists, adventurers, explorers, etc.. And so and they have the money, they have the resources to do it. But they are also really great at putting the stories first. I've done some sponsored content where it's so blatant, where the person is being asked to turn and explain in the interview, isn't it so great that sponsor X is is here doing this?
00:19:12:10 - 00:19:29:10
Unknown
We sure couldn't do this without sponsor X, and Rolex is a lot more subtle. We put the logo at the end and the person in the film wears the watch, and other than that, it's entirely about the science or about the adventure or about the exploration, or about the thing that the person is trying to change, which is amazing.
00:19:29:10 - 00:19:48:22
Unknown
And some of the the work that I've been lucky to do with them has been brilliant. Like this year we were in in Colombia at a place called Mal Palo. I'm working on a project through Mission Blue with Sandra Basu, who is like, Ocean Warrior and has gotten, Mal palo. my palo, by the way, is like, sort of the Galapagos of Colombia.
00:19:48:22 - 00:20:09:04
Unknown
It's like a teeny tiny island in the middle of nowhere, 30 hours, sailing out of mainland Colombia with a ton of endemic species and a really unique reef. And it's it's protected because of her. She argued for it. She got a marine protected area created, and now she's expanded the size of that marine protected area by working with the Colombian government over a period of 30 years.
00:20:09:05 - 00:20:32:01
Unknown
And so that was really amazing. And so we get to make stories about her, and we go to Mount Palo and we dive and deal with admittedly very difficult conditions. But but yeah. And it's it's the best. And like, you know, you make enough money to to like live a good life. You're amplifying the voice of an important ocean conservationists.
00:20:32:06 - 00:20:57:07
Unknown
And the sponsor gets to feel good about being a part of really interesting and valuable work. What type of work do you seek to pursue now? So two years ago, and I don't want to know how much I can talk about this. I did one job with National Geographic. I can't say any more than that because I signed a terrifying NDA with Disney, but that will Mickey's going company.
00:20:57:07 - 00:21:24:08
Unknown
Yeah. So, I can only say that I did that, but that was like, always the goal. I wanted to either work with the BBC Natural History Unit or with National Geographic or both, and that is just like the majority of the stuff that they do is straight up natural history stories, like, like a Planet Earth sort of thing, where it's like, here is the animal and here's the behavior and here is the thing, and it's that's the dream, because that exists only to talk about about that.
00:21:24:12 - 00:21:50:19
Unknown
And, and it's amazing. And like people have varying opinions on how hard it is, on how well it's paid, on how all kinds of different sorts of things. But that's the dream is to be doing that. And I got one little taste of that last year for the first time, and it was amazing. It was it was like sort of one of those odd Covid benefits where they weren't able to get the people that they needed over here on a Canadian visa, and they needed somebody who did have one and was more or less local.
00:21:50:19 - 00:22:10:09
Unknown
And that was me. And it was an amazing experience. And I was really, really thrilled. And so the goal is to be doing that. How do you get your name known for projects like that? Like like that's where it's of course your work can speak for itself, but sometimes there's still the business and the marketing side of marketing your own work, networking, dare I use that word?
00:22:10:11 - 00:22:26:20
Unknown
But how do you approach that? I mean, ask me again in a year. I'm kind of in the middle of a few plans where I'm trying to figure this out, because nobody seems to know. I think it's equal parts encouraging and frustrating, but when I don't really know what my next move is, I. I tend to reach out to somebody else who does the same thing as me, but seems to be doing a lot better.
00:22:26:20 - 00:22:43:00
Unknown
And I ask them, and inevitably they have the same number of questions for me that I have for them. And, we go back and forth and they're like, but how are you doing this? And I'm saying, no, no, no, you're the successful one. I have questions for you. Don't ask me. I don't know, you know. So it's on the one hand, it's like I didn't learn as much as I'd hoped.
00:22:43:02 - 00:23:00:11
Unknown
But on the other hand, the person who looks like they're doing better has all the same problems as you. So I don't really know if that's any help, but I think, again, it's like, keep doing what you're doing. Do as much of the type of thing you want to be doing outside of the purview of a paid job and just go ask.
00:23:00:12 - 00:23:17:22
Unknown
That's the other thing. Don't expect to be discovered. That's a terrible strategy. You can put something up and hope for the best. And you never know. Like every now and then it can happen. I have had an experience where, apropos of nothing, someone reached out to me and I ended up giving a speech in Dubai and it was amazing.
00:23:17:23 - 00:23:37:06
Unknown
but that's one time. And that is not the normal experience, right? Right. So like that was just incredible, unbelievable luck. And even when it happened, when I first read the message, I was like, this is definitely a scam because it reads like a scam. You know, like, we would love to exhibit your photography in Dubai at our festival.
00:23:37:06 - 00:23:52:04
Unknown
At photography festival. Why don't you please come and join us there? We'll all expenses paid trip. And I was like, yeah, sure. What are you asking for? My sin? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Let me just send you all my personal information. And then I look the guy up and I was like, oh, no, he's the curator of the largest festival in the Middle East and has been for several years.
00:23:52:04 - 00:24:11:16
Unknown
And I got I got him on the phone. I couldn't believe it. But so like it, it can happen. But that is, to quote a very ridiculous banking commercial, hope is not a plan. A thousand questions alone, separately about that. It makes sense for banking commercial. Now that we're saying it out loud, I think it was like an investment thing.
00:24:11:16 - 00:24:26:21
Unknown
I can't remember exactly, but it aired during hockey games, so I saw it about 600 times over the hockey season last year. Well, the messenger guys see today it was just no, it was so intense, you know what I mean? Like all the other commercials are like, oh, you know, have fun of them. Big game and eat this product and do this thing.
00:24:26:21 - 00:24:39:12
Unknown
And then there was this like two dudes talking about finance. And the guy's like, hope, hope is not a plan. And then it ends and there's no music. It was very doom and gloom and I was just like, oh my God, you're in the middle of the game. Like, I just want to see if the Leafs are going to win, right?
00:24:39:14 - 00:24:59:08
Unknown
Like, this is meant to be my escapism. Don't remind me about the peril of my finances. Come on man. Like it was very intense. I wasn't happy, but it's did it stick with me? So I guess it's made an impact. I feel like the same art director, whoever ran that commercial, just like, okay, the subsequent commercial for this season should just be Samuel L Jackson looking at you dead, deadpan down the barrel, going, get your shit together.
00:24:59:08 - 00:25:30:11
Unknown
It's a five second commercial. It's great. Have you? Amazing. It's kind of funny because when we first were talking about doing this podcast, of course, like, you're one of my best friends, it's where do we even begin? And what how do you talk about. And it's really about your journey and one of the other areas, though, that this is applicable for people outside of careers in creative is there's such a focus in marketing for many businesses on video and the art of telling the visual story.
00:25:30:13 - 00:25:47:17
Unknown
Not to distill this down to a simplified question, since this is another episode on its own. It could be a story at a dinner table, or it could be a story for marketing. What are the basics and the bare bones that people should know and are often overlooked? Yeah, I can certainly give you a few of those. And I try and I try and teach this.
00:25:47:18 - 00:26:03:08
Unknown
I'm the photographer in residence on an expedition ship some of the time, and I basically get a 45 minute, where is that ship in Antarctica? Nice. But we I do like a 45 minute lecture at the beginning. And so I don't have a lot of time. And I'm communicating to a lot of people who aren't necessarily there to do a photography course.
00:26:03:08 - 00:26:20:07
Unknown
You know, some of them certainly are super keen, but some of them are there more or less to be on vacation. And then there are folks in between who are like, I'll get a slightly better photo. So it's like, how much storytelling can you teach in 45 minutes to people who are only a little bit interested? A few things I can say are have a beginning, middle, and an end.
00:26:20:09 - 00:26:36:02
Unknown
I know that sounds so route one, but how many times have you been in a dinner table and someone's been like, oh my God. Well, we went to the pub and then so-and-so was up on the table and they went rather than me, and you had to be there, and they just bail out and there's no ending at all.
00:26:36:03 - 00:26:56:06
Unknown
This becomes so like having a beginning, a middle and an end, really important. Like that's a story with two of those things and not a third. So that sounds so stupid. But like when you go to show something, does it have those things? Number two, less is almost always more. If you can show something, don't tell it. You know what I mean?
00:26:56:06 - 00:27:13:16
Unknown
Like if you want to show like if somebody is late, the easiest thing in the world is to have the person go, oh no, I'm late. And that's just also very like route one storytelling. There's 6 million ways to show that that person's late. Maybe they forget something. Is there half halfway up the door? Maybe it's just as simple as they're glancing at their watch.
00:27:13:16 - 00:27:33:05
Unknown
You know, maybe it's something where they've got they're trying to manage too many things at once. No one is going to make a mistake about what you mean. Like we've all everyone's been late for something, you know, like that's a universal experience. So there are a million universal ways to explain that experience. So, like show don't tell less is more.
00:27:33:07 - 00:28:06:17
Unknown
And the other thing I think is, is if you only have 30s to tell a story, tell me one story. Don't try and explain 15 things to me, because this is something I run into with brands a lot of the time where it's like, okay, well, our demographic is age 0 to 99 located in the world, and we would like all of them to know who we are, how long we've been doing this, why we're better than our competitors, what our product is, what's so revolutionary about our product, why our product is superior to the next best product, why it's going to help them in their lives.
00:28:06:17 - 00:28:23:00
Unknown
And I'm all right. I'm running out of fingers. And to count this on an end, I can't explain. It's like, no, no, no. Tell me one thing. Is this about you or is it about the product? Okay. It's about you. Okay. What's the one thing you want people to know about you? Are you better? Are you faster? Are you cheaper?
00:28:23:00 - 00:28:49:11
Unknown
Are you easier? Like, what's the thing? Okay. You're easier. You're the financial institution. That's the easiest. We're going to tell a story that's just about that, you know, and like think of how long you give your attention to something. Now are you on TikTok? Yes. I will fully admit that is so four seconds, right. If I can't capture your attention in four seconds, then you can forget about the next 12 seconds.
00:28:49:13 - 00:29:04:16
Unknown
So and then I have to tell you the whole story in 15 seconds or you'll be bored. So like, the hook is so much shorter now. Well, and you just have less time. So like explain one thing clearly. So like I should be able to tell you what a commercial is about in one sentence when it's over, you know.
00:29:04:18 - 00:29:21:13
Unknown
So I think people very easily lose sight of that because quite often companies are paying quite a lot of money all at once for something that to them feels very short and they want to pack everything into it. And the thing is generally that makes it less effective. So this is not a plan. Hope is not a plan.
00:29:21:19 - 00:29:42:03
Unknown
But look at like you still talking about it. Yeah. So so that would be that would be what I would say is like those are some straightforward storytelling tips that anybody can use for telling any story about anything. I'm the prime example of like the dinner party situation, like ADHD tangents that just bring you into the four different ones, and I just feel burden hitting me of the table being like, back to the first source.
00:29:42:07 - 00:29:58:16
Unknown
Yeah. Come on. Oh it's tough. I'm like, I need accountability on the outside. Like, that's not him being rude. I need someone to be like, bring it back, bring it back, reel it in. Well, I find so I'm a huge comedy fan and I find that that has really helped me kind of tighten up telling stories. Because the thing is, if there isn't a punchline, it isn't a joke.
00:29:58:20 - 00:30:15:05
Unknown
So you have to think about telling a story that same way where it's like, what am I building up to? And what do I leave people with? And then it's over, you know what I mean? Then you also have to leave it, because if it doesn't go over as well as you'd hoped, move on. You move on. Don't sit there and try and, you know, dig your joke out of a shallow grave.
00:30:15:05 - 00:30:41:06
Unknown
That's no helpful either. So you finish it and move on. And I love that you. Not only are you my mentor when it comes to, like, film and photography, but also now you're my comedy Yoda. Well, I don't know about that. Oh no, oh no, I did standup specifically because it was like, look, if this if this fails, if it bombs, I just want to know how to tell a good story and land a punchline, because you always notice that at dinner, who are the ones who are like, oh, this person.
00:30:41:11 - 00:30:55:06
Unknown
You can guarantee when they come to a dinner party. And I'll never forget this episode of Bourdain and oh, you know exactly where I'm going with this thing. So, okay, there's an episode where they go to Quebec and they're with, I believe it's two chefs. I wish I knew their name off the top of my head right now.
00:30:55:08 - 00:31:14:03
Unknown
And they discuss this where they're like, if you're a guest at a dinner party, it is your responsibility to come prepared with good stories, feel how you feel about it. Of course, there's still like connections and many other reasons for dinner party. I love that I think you're going to have a better dinner party. I think that's that's maybe a strong, strong arm.
00:31:14:05 - 00:31:32:04
Unknown
Strong? Yeah. Sometimes I just want to have a drink and hang out with my friends. But, I mean, I don't disagree. I think I have a few in your back pocket. Yeah, certainly. I mean, I try and like, as a person who travels quite a lot, I have a terrible fear of becoming the person who goes on and on about, well, the time I was over here in Budapest and then I was over here doing this.
00:31:32:04 - 00:31:45:13
Unknown
And then that makes really with all the great stories of how awesome my life is all the time, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to be that guy. At first when I started traveling, I was I was that person because I was so excited and I couldn't leave it. I'd come back and be like, oh my God, I've just done this.
00:31:45:14 - 00:32:06:07
Unknown
Let me tell you, this. Let me tell you every single thing that happened. And now I'm like, I would hear myself and being like, oh my God, I'm exhausting. I am the person I would hate at dinner. So now generally, I try and distill it down to, I'll think of one exceptional thing that happened and one summary of what I was doing.
00:32:06:09 - 00:32:22:19
Unknown
And so then when someone's like, hey, I was really I was such and such and I'll be like, it was great. I was here doing this. And if they say, oh, really? And they want to know more, then I'll tell them one story about one thing that happened and then we leave it. Because otherwise I'd talk and talk and talk and talk and I love the sound of my own voice.
00:32:22:19 - 00:32:40:08
Unknown
So that's a problem. Someone I need to stop or I'll just carry on and on. I think that's really good advice generally, because sometimes it's the it's the leave it wanting more effect. Or if someone actually is interested in doubling down, they'll ask a follow up question, but you're kind of giving someone the out and the opportunity. If you are a talker.
00:32:40:10 - 00:32:59:02
Unknown
Yes. And that's the same problem. I don't want to go and do a PowerPoint presentation. I just want to have a drink and have a chat. You know, like, I just want to hang out. Like I want to see my friends and like, I want to know about their lives, too. It's not any less interesting people. I think the difference is, like, my life can sound very glamorous, even when it isn't necessarily.
00:32:59:07 - 00:33:17:00
Unknown
But that doesn't make it more interesting. Like, I have friends that work in health care who have insane, unbelievable stories, the likes of which I'm never going to run into. And I think that stuff is fascinating. And like, is it glamorous? Not always know. A lot of the time it's blood and guts and terror, but it's still fascinating.
00:33:17:00 - 00:33:42:05
Unknown
And like, I don't think there's any less value in that. And I have to structure the conversations so that that they feel that way because I don't want to sit and bulldoze them with this. And then the other thing, first of all, I don't watch a PowerPoint presentation of any of your travels any day. But there is a time and a place where I love there's like this little speaking of tick tock, tick tock trend where people do this and it's like, get everyone together and do a PowerPoint presentation.
00:33:42:07 - 00:33:56:18
Unknown
And mostly it's comedy based versus here's how amazing my trip was. But that sounds like fun, though. Oh, it's it's amazing. It's amazing. And then imagine you did that. Like, look, ours is a little bit more serious of saying, like, you have a friend in health care is like, oh my God, you need to know about this and where everyone has this area of expertise.
00:33:56:20 - 00:34:18:14
Unknown
But then some of these other ones are like, here's a PowerPoint presentation, which I also love and on board with of here all the Tinder dates I went on in the past three months from single friends, and I'm here for those as well. I love you have so many experiences across like I want to ask you about your time in Chernobyl or your time in Antarctica, and also the work in Giants of Africa, because it is incredibly important how much that program has developed over the past.
00:34:18:14 - 00:34:43:08
Unknown
When was the first film was 20 years ago. Oh, the film was 2015, but the program is 20 years old. That is incredible. You have such a vast wealth of experiences and and areas of that you enjoy and can film. Dare I ask the question, is there one in particular that you are most passionate about? And if you could do that category the rest of your life, what is it?
00:34:43:12 - 00:35:02:06
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my zero hesitation, no love that. Oh yeah. My dream is always had been to work underwater. That's always what I wanted to do. And I remember diving for the first time when I was 15 and being like, oh my God, this is amazing. But thinking it was kind of a thing you do on special occasions, you know, if you are lucky enough to go somewhere where that's possible.
00:35:02:09 - 00:35:16:01
Unknown
And it wasn't until I got a bit older and started meeting more folks where I was like, oh no, you can go diving here, you can go diving in Lake Ontario, you can go locally. And there are people who do this for a living. There are people who are dive masters and they're underwater welders, and they work on fish farms.
00:35:16:01 - 00:35:43:17
Unknown
And more than that, like there are people who are filmmakers that that's their life. And so I always wanted to do that, and I would do it. I would spend all my money on a underwater housing for a camera and then go and and just shoot just because I loved it and I wanted I was in love with the idea of being able to go and make these images underwater, in a place where a lot of people don't ever get the chance to go and try and bring that back and show, because I was always when I was watching Planet Earth or what have you.
00:35:43:17 - 00:35:59:07
Unknown
When I was young, it was always the underwater stuff where I was like, that's so cool, because, I mean, most of us, you know, we live on the land and the land is. Yeah. Have you heard of the land that. Yeah, we live in and around the land. So like when you see something like a forest, it's not super unfamiliar.
00:35:59:07 - 00:36:17:23
Unknown
Like, it's not that it isn't amazing, but we've been in or near a forest, but underwater, it's like everything is so radically and unusually different. And animals live in three dimensions. And coral we treat like plants, but they're technically animals. And people are trying to change that terminology to marine animal forest rather than coral reef. But I was so fascinated by that.
00:36:18:01 - 00:36:37:18
Unknown
And, the dream would be, of course, to work underwater. So I when I did my big equipment purchase when I was it was in 2014 and I was like, I'm going to buy a proper camera with the goal of going freelance in a couple of years. It was while I was still working at the travel company and I bought I bought the camera and I bought the underwater housing to go with it.
00:36:37:18 - 00:37:00:04
Unknown
I spent more money than I'd ever spent in my life in one go. That took me years and years to pay off. And that way my thinking was, when the call comes, I'd be like, yes, I have everything you need, and I can go today and and so I would take this with me and I would shoot whatever I could, wherever I could, as often as I could.
00:37:00:06 - 00:37:18:02
Unknown
And when the call did eventually come, I it was with Rolex that I got my first proper paid underwater gig. That was your first paid like I don't I don't know, odds and ends or like I done stuff where, you know, there's 1 or 2 underwater shots here or there or like some like a music video in a pool type of thing.
00:37:18:02 - 00:37:52:18
Unknown
But this was like natural history in the ocean on the, in Chile, like on the other side of the world. And they had lost their cinematographer. I think it was like two weeks before, I don't remember what happened. You had a visa problem or we had a conflict or something like that. And by some bizarre miracle, their fixer, who was a Chilean guy who based out of San Diego, who he was in a Toronto film Facebook group for, like, I need a producer, fixer, etc. and I had just posted my new reel and it had a bunch of underwater stuff in it, and I was like, hey guys, if anyone needs an underwater person, blah
00:37:52:18 - 00:38:15:07
Unknown
blah blah. And he reached out and he said, hey, we've just lost our underwater guy. Can I put you in touch with our director? And he did. And two weeks later I was going to Chile. So like it did work out because I was, you know, you put in your work out there, you're telling as many people as you can, and then when the time comes, you're not scrambling around trying to rent something, trying to learn how something works, trying to use equipment for the first time.
00:38:15:09 - 00:38:33:11
Unknown
I have the equipment, I know how it goes, and I can get it on a plane and go and and it was amazing. And then, then I had something proper to show after that. So I was really thrilled with that. And like now I've been doing a lot more ocean conservation type storytelling. I did a film about whale sharks in 2019 that was like On My Own, which was really fun and very difficult.
00:38:33:13 - 00:38:49:11
Unknown
What's it called? So people, come on, I called Galapagos Secrets of the Ocean Giants. I'm we're still working on trying to get a place where it can be viewed regularly, but, it's been at a number of film festivals, and hopefully sooner or later it'll have a life on streaming. That's the dream. But I did that, which I was really, really excited about.
00:38:49:13 - 00:39:06:05
Unknown
And now that's all I want to do at the moment. I do between 1 and 3 really cool underwater jobs a year, and I would love for it to be, you know, 50, 50 underwater on the land. That would be the dream. The land, the land all the way back. You've heard of the land? Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of it.
00:39:06:05 - 00:39:20:19
Unknown
I'm not quite super familiar with it, though. I mean, listening to this audiobook right now, but like of shipping your work because there's not feeling confident and like there's always more. There's always more you want to add. There's more on the reel. There's more of this. But like the importance of going know you updated every year, put it out there.
00:39:20:21 - 00:39:38:22
Unknown
It may not be the standard of where you're constantly going to be moving the goalposts, but you're not going to get jobs if you don't put it out there. You update your reel every year. I've heard you should. I do? That's like I do every three years. I am not the I'm the absolute hypocrite and suffice. Like I keep saying, I'm going to update my hosting reel.
00:39:38:22 - 00:39:54:22
Unknown
I'm like, no, there's no different. You're already trying to do work projects and then your own projects, and then this isn't even like a project. It's just necessary. You know? It's like updating your resume. If you're updating your resume, you know, took hundreds of hours. Yeah. And then the importance of community and how often to jobs are they.
00:39:54:22 - 00:40:14:23
Unknown
So like in community groups on Facebook. Just good to know I don't know, I was a lot more active in it back then, and I feel like it was a lot more conducive to getting jobs back then. It's kind of swelled beyond its original size, and it's also a lot more for like local Toronto things now. But most of what I do is word of mouth Tuesdays, so it's not something I've participated in to the same degree, so I couldn't speak to its effectiveness.
00:40:14:23 - 00:40:31:17
Unknown
Now, if you are open to talking about it and it's not something you're keeping close to the chest in the back pocket for an upcoming project, is there a story that you would love to capture? You get funding tomorrow. You can go shoot this and it's related to ocean conservation. What would you pursue? I mean, there's two things.
00:40:31:19 - 00:40:56:07
Unknown
One, I've never been diving in Antarctica, and that's a goal of mine. I would love to do something like that. There's so much interesting life there. And there's also a lot of really bizarre sort of anthropomorphic logical effects from old whaling stations where they've just been discarding whale bones into the bay for hundreds of years. And, I feel like there's probably a lot of really beautiful and strange things to see.
00:40:56:11 - 00:41:21:16
Unknown
The way ice moves and and how it interacts with the sea is really amazing. And that's something that, you know, we affect it and it affects us. So I think there's a lot of really amazing stories to tell in the Antarctic, especially from a human impact point of view. I would love to do something like that. And the other thing I would love to do would be to pick up on the Whale Shark project and try and make it a global picture of the state of whale sharks in the world.
00:41:21:18 - 00:41:38:17
Unknown
Because the nice thing about all of this ocean conservation stuff is that the communities are very small. So if you meet somebody who does any kind of ocean conservation work, it's like two degrees of separation. So they'll know someone that you know or the person they know knows them. And it happens more and more and more and more.
00:41:38:17 - 00:41:51:20
Unknown
So all the whale shark people know each other. And even when we were doing our project in the Galapagos, there were five people on the boat. One of them worked at the Georgia Aquarium, where they keep whale sharks. He pioneered the techniques for how they were going to take blood from one in Mid-water, as they were swimming along.
00:41:51:22 - 00:42:13:03
Unknown
there were there were two people from a university in Okinawa who couldn't come, unfortunately, but they learned how to ultrasound a whale shark in Mid-water to see if they could discover whether they were pregnant or whether they were getting pregnant. There was another. And why is that so important? We've talked about that offline. But yeah, it well, I mean, that's a whole other thing, but it's basically like we know nothing about the whale shark reproductive cycle chart version.
00:42:13:05 - 00:42:38:14
Unknown
But there was another guy who he works out of New Zealand and he works he's a project in Tokyo and Mozambique and another one in Ningaloo Reef in Australia, where they look at different populations. The two of them had worked together on a project in Saint Helena, which is this tiny island in the middle of the South Atlantic, where it's the only place that attempted mating has ever been witnessed, because no one has ever seen whale sharks mate, no one has ever seen whale sharks give birth.
00:42:38:19 - 00:43:04:04
Unknown
But an attempt at mating was was caught on video in Saint Helena once. It's the only evidence we have, so I would love to go to Saint Helena, go to Ningaloo Reef, go to Tokyo, in Mozambique, go to Thailand, go to the Philippines, go to Mexico and talk about tourism with whale sharks and kind of create a global picture of what's going on with them, what's our impact, why they're important.
00:43:04:04 - 00:43:26:10
Unknown
They get talked about quite a lot as an ambassador species and why that's important for conservation and to underscore the idea that you're never going to protect something that you don't care about. So you want to help people to love and care about these things so that they will care enough to protect them. Another how to episode completely on its own when there are so many things to care about in the world.
00:43:26:12 - 00:43:49:13
Unknown
Like you can only really do 1 or 2. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to do that one because I can't save everybody. But then the how can film actually help drive and impact that? Like people, you're torn in so many different areas depending on what's happening and like what your personal life is, where you live, on what causes you want to focus on, but how is film a conduit to empathy?
00:43:49:15 - 00:44:06:05
Unknown
Let's look at what you're saying is if you get someone to care about something, then they'll want to protect it like no one. If nobody cares about the Earth, then nobody's going to bother protecting it. Because why would you think about all the things you don't care about? Or you're not donating money or time or effort to those causes, right?
00:44:06:05 - 00:44:38:14
Unknown
So like film is the connective tissue that helps get people to care because it might be something that you I feel like we can all kind of get on board with the idea that generally human introduced climate change is not great, but there's not a lot you can do with that information if you want an actionable step. So another thing that film can do is give you instructions so that when you finish a film and you're like, oh my God, this is a terrible disaster.
00:44:38:14 - 00:45:07:09
Unknown
You know, this volcano or this oil spill or this, you know, terrible fishing practice. What can I do to change this? If you're a filmmaker, tell people, right. Tell them what to do. Give them actionable like, you know, tangible steps. Be like, go and donate your money to this particular cause because they're doing X, Y, and Z. Go and donate your time on these particular volunteer opportunities because they're going to make a genuine impact, because every now and then and they never get as much press.
00:45:07:11 - 00:45:31:05
Unknown
There are really successful conservation stories. So on the ship that I work on in the Antarctic, we were we would raise money on board in auctions for the South Georgia rat eradication program. It's not particularly glamorous, but basically South Georgia has the highest density of wildlife of any place on Earth. So you don't see 10 or 20 penguins, you see 200,000 penguins, and it's breeding ground for king penguins.
00:45:31:08 - 00:46:02:00
Unknown
It's a breeding ground for a number of different species of albatross and for a number of different species of definitely fur seals, and I believe elephant seals as well. But when whalers first arrived on South Georgia, they would have these creaky old ships from, you know, the 17, the 1800s. And the hold would be full of rats. And so the rats eventually got onto South Georgia, and the rats would predate on baby albatross and on albatross eggs because it was easy prey, the albatross who'd never had to deal with a land predator before, got torn to pieces.
00:46:02:00 - 00:46:22:11
Unknown
And the populations were decimated because it was such a unique niche. And they we'd introduced a problem that they'd never had to deal with and had no defenses for. So we raised money over a period of not just us, a lot of other people as well, but one of the guys who spearheaded the rat eradication program and Scobie Pi, he worked with us onboard our ship name.
00:46:22:12 - 00:46:42:03
Unknown
He's you could do a whole episode on him. He's unbelievable. He's worked in the Antarctic for 50 years and he's overwintered on South Georgia twice. anyway, he we we raised money for this program, and as of, I think it's three years ago, we did eradicate the rats. There are no rats on South Georgia. We finished the project.
00:46:42:09 - 00:47:07:07
Unknown
It's stopped now. And the albatross population is starting to come back because we'd identified the problem. Experts figured out a way of dealing with the problem. People raised money in a meaningful way where you take them to South Georgia, you show them how amazing it is, and then you're like, your money in this box now will tangibly help save all of the animals you've spent today, looking at and enjoying.
00:47:07:09 - 00:47:25:23
Unknown
And they did. So it's it's like if you give people tangible steps like that and examples of how it can be successful and show them some something to fall in love with them, they care about it, they have an actionable step, and they have faith that something good can be done. I love that, and I know we're almost out of time here.
00:47:26:01 - 00:47:45:17
Unknown
Is there an area that you're just sometimes not asked about that you wish people knew? I'm going to leave it as broad as that intentionally. Oh boy. I want to know where your brain goes with that. I really don't know. I mean, I feel like I do get asked the same 5 or 6 questions over and over again, but I think that's normal.
00:47:45:19 - 00:48:01:14
Unknown
I think especially just with the nature of the types of interviews that I end up doing. And usually. What are the five and six? How did you get to where you are? what's the hardest part of your job? what's the most interesting place that you've been? What's your next project and that sort of thing? You know what I mean?
00:48:01:17 - 00:48:17:21
Unknown
So are the ones I just had know. Oh, you did a couple of them. And I mean, some of them are just necessary. Like, I don't begrudge it, but and I'm getting better at answering them I think. But I'm something that I don't get asked. I would love to be asked a more tangible logistics question. You know what I mean?
00:48:17:21 - 00:48:36:13
Unknown
Like when I talked to, I had a really great conversation on the phone just recently where I, I met somebody when I was working in Rwanda, and they were like, hey, do you know so-and-so? he's an underwater photographer as well. He's on the West Coast. I said, no, and they put us in touch, and I got on the phone just to make an introduction and get to know him a little bit.
00:48:36:13 - 00:48:58:12
Unknown
I thought we were gonna talk for 15 minutes. We talked for 90 minutes, and we just because we, like I was mentioning before, had all the same problems. So we just kept going on. Oh my God. Okay. It's this. How do you overcome this? Well, why do you think this is a good idea? So sometimes it's it's really great to get into the nuts and bolts of something because you talked a little bit about community earlier.
00:48:58:12 - 00:49:18:03
Unknown
And that's a really tricky thing in natural history. Because generally when you're in the field, you're often by yourself or you're with one other person who doesn't do the same job as you. So it's very difficult to build community. And on very rare occasions, sometimes you'll be on a shoot where there are two camera ops, or maybe there are a few more and you actually have the same home base.
00:49:18:05 - 00:49:36:07
Unknown
And that's the best, because you're sitting up close with the person in the field and with all their equipment, and you can sit there and be like, well, how do you solve this problem when this happens? Like when the sun is behind you and like, well, I built this, you know, tiny little Velcro based sunshield, but it folds flat so I can get it behind the thing in the Pelican case so it doesn't increase the weight of any packing.
00:49:36:07 - 00:49:53:18
Unknown
Or it's like, how do you manage to get all of your stuff through in the fewest number of cases? Or what do you do when you're trying to get this from one place to another, or even with with dive gear? Why, like you, you'll see somebody shoot up in the same. Like, I'm getting into this rebreather situation now and that's already niche.
00:49:53:18 - 00:50:15:03
Unknown
Diving is niche enough. It's hard enough to find a diver who cares enough to talk about the nuts and bolts of that with you. Now you're into rebreathers. You need a rebreather diver who is, you know, doing other work. They call it, you know, task loading. Because can you explain what a rebreather diver is actually before you go into task, even in very brief and very, very brief steps, regular scuba diving is called open circuit.
00:50:15:07 - 00:50:35:06
Unknown
So you breathe in from a tank out into the water. Rebreather diving is called closed circuit. So you breathe out from a tank and then back into the tube. And then you breathe that breath a second time and a carbon scrubber on your back scrubs the carbon dioxide out of your breathing loop so that you can utilize the unused oxygen the second time around.
00:50:35:09 - 00:50:51:03
Unknown
And the main purpose of that is for you to stay longer. Well, you can stay longer underwater. you can mix your gases in real time so you have less, less deko time and you don't blow bubbles, so you're less likely to frighten wildlife. And there are a number of other smaller advantages, like it's not cold and dry in your mouth.
00:50:51:03 - 00:51:10:17
Unknown
It's warm and that's much more comfortable. And you've if you're getting into more technical or more mixed gas diving, you're not carrying 500 bottles with you like some tech divers have to. You can mix a lot of it on your back, and you're only carrying bailout anyway. Task loading is where you are giving yourself more jobs in an already difficult situation.
00:51:10:17 - 00:51:34:03
Unknown
So astronauts deal with this divers deal with this. Anybody who is doing a task in an extreme environment where task number one is remain alive. So on your rebreather, you're constantly monitoring your PO2, which is your partial pressure of oxygen, your breathing loop, to make sure not only that you have enough, but that you don't have too much because there are a lot of fun and exciting new ways to die when you get into rebreather diving.
00:51:34:09 - 00:51:52:22
Unknown
So that's one task. Then you have the biggest smile and I'd say it's okay, then you have to do the dives. You're moving from one place to another. You're like locating, you know, the animal in question. Or maybe you're doing something sciencey, like changing an acoustic receiver. So you have to go to there, and then you have to remove the acoustic receiver and then tie on the new ones.
00:51:52:22 - 00:52:12:00
Unknown
So that's a second task that goes on top of the previous task. And then I'm trying to film these things. So I'm also trying to make decisions about my camera as I'm selecting my aperture. And I'm pulling focus. And I'm pressing record and stopping record and making sure I have enough battery and doing all of these other things without forgetting to not die, to not die.
00:52:12:04 - 00:52:34:15
Unknown
So task loading can be really, really tricky. I can't remember why I started talking about this is the sense of community and having people to be able to talk to. Yes. That's right. So it was it's that everyone has some advice. If they do this enough, they'll have shortcuts. They'll have little ways. They've set things up. One of the great ones that I saw was Gillan, who is an amazing technical rebreather diver out of France.
00:52:34:15 - 00:52:52:11
Unknown
He works for an organization called Under the Pull that him and his wife co-founded. They he does a lot of filming as well, and it's tough for him because he's one of the only people on board who can do the filming. But he has ten other tasks. He's the expedition leader, he's doing deep experimental dives, he's collecting science experiments, and he's deciding where the ship is going to sail the next day.
00:52:52:11 - 00:53:06:07
Unknown
So he's got so much going on. And so it was really great when I got to work with him, because in some cases I could sort of take on the filming stuff for some of the shallower dives. But he has his camera set up and I got my camera set up and we would sit there and discuss constantly.
00:53:06:07 - 00:53:21:16
Unknown
One of the things that he did was so simple, but he has, generally you always have redundancy because, two is one and one is none, as they say. So he would have a second. Yeah. It's just good advice in general if you deal with equipment of any kind. But he would have a second dive computer, as you always do.
00:53:21:16 - 00:53:43:11
Unknown
Normally I have my primary on my left wrist and then my secondary on my right wrist. He has his secondary on his camera under his monitor, so he doesn't even have to move his hand to be able to see what's going on. And I was like, that's such a simple thing and makes so much sense. And it immediately it saves you time, it saves you tasks, it makes you a little bit safer.
00:53:43:11 - 00:53:57:00
Unknown
And it was just one of those things where it's like, I never would have thought to do that on my own. And it's not until you start talking to these people and you find these things out of the same token, he was struggling because he'd had these presets, but he couldn't get the presets to change the shutter speed.
00:53:57:02 - 00:54:08:19
Unknown
And I was like, well, just set it at 180 degree shutter. So that way the shutter speed is going to be relative to your frame rate all the time. This is what I mean about asking these super technical questions. And we both sorted out the presets in the next. So I taught him something and he had taught me something.
00:54:08:19 - 00:54:23:07
Unknown
We both had a much better dive the next time, and I'm like, this would be a great thing to be asked, you know what I mean? But it's tough. It's tough to do something that's relevant to a broader audience. Like it's it's so what I do is already so niche. I've made it more niche by putting it underwater.
00:54:23:12 - 00:54:40:14
Unknown
So it's it's like the people that I would be saying this to mostly know already, and most of them know more than me because I'm sort of just getting into it. But, it is fun. It's like when you see two car people get together and start talking, you know, you know, immediately, immediately the conversation. It could be car, it could be anime.
00:54:40:14 - 00:54:57:15
Unknown
It could be like whenever two people care about a niche and it's like one of us, right? But it's inevitably it's like numbers that are getting thrown around. There's a whole language that you don't understand, and all of a sudden it's like, I had this experience. I was in Tampa and my friend, I didn't know this, but is an enormous American football fan.
00:54:57:21 - 00:55:12:19
Unknown
And the our server, the draft was on, on the TV and our server came over and met and he just made an offhand comment to the server and that boom, they were off on a 16 minute conversation about American football. And I was like, I didn't know you could do that. It's like seeing a different person. It was really, really amazing.
00:55:12:19 - 00:55:34:05
Unknown
So that's the the blessing and the curse of it. Like, I would love to have more conversations like that, but it's it's for 20 people. But I love that. Like what I'm taking away from it is all the way back to the beginning of this conversation saying, check your got the door, ask questions and reach out. The intimidation factor of sometimes you don't reach out because it's like, oh, like, are they competition?
00:55:34:05 - 00:55:49:10
Unknown
They're a lot further ahead in their career than me, perceptively. And then going, oh, just, you know everyone, we all have something to learn from each other, feel okay to reach out and to reach out is also to check your ego. I mean, like, I want to know what I know and I want to know what I don't know.
00:55:49:11 - 00:56:04:08
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, what's the worst thing that can happen there going to be like, no, exactly. You're no worse off. Oh, sorry. I don't have time. Okay, great. Is there time in the future? Are you not interested? No problem. Fine. And to give something out to. Because, like, sometimes life is crazy. Where it's like, hey, I'd love to reach out and, like, don't get offended of someone's, like, I can't right now, right?
00:56:04:13 - 00:56:21:13
Unknown
Like, I just, I would love to talk to everybody all the time, but I also can't. I mean, I'm about to go to six weeks where I'll have no internet. And so no offense to anyone. I just can't do it. Yeah, yeah. How dare. Yeah, I need to be focused and not die. Yeah I know, how dare I?
00:56:21:15 - 00:56:36:16
Unknown
Well, definitely having you back on for another episode. Maybe we get more technical. Maybe it's less super in each episode. but thank you so much for coming on, mister. Jeff, thank you so much for having me. It's always exciting to talk and talk and talk and talk, and hopefully I didn't go on and on too much. Not at all.
00:56:36:16 - 00:56:48:12
Unknown
Because again, both of us can. But. And now on to the smooth jazz. And thanks for listening to, Kaitlyn, 95. And coming up next, it's Miles Davis.
00:56:50:03 - 00:57:17:15
Unknown
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you wanted to follow along with Jeff's journey or have some just beautiful images and videos come across your timeline, be sure to follow him at Jeffrey. Garioch, Jeffrey. Garioch. Garioch. Also encourage you to check out his IMDb page for the work that he's been a part of that includes two beautiful shorts that he was cinematographer on Children of Chernobyl and also Galapagos secrets of the Ocean Giants.
00:57:17:17 - 00:57:36:15
Unknown
Thank you so much again for listening. And if you could spare a moment, please leave a comment. Leave a review on this podcast wherever it is that you're listening. The little bit of love goes a long way. And if you have a how to episode that you would like to have us explore on the show, please don't hesitate to reach out to our team.
